If Zenyatta wins the Classic

[CSC]

Originally Posted by CrossfireHurricane

It sounds like she is headed to the Classic based on what Mr. Haskin said on the radioshow. On paper she does not appear fast enough but she does always find a way to win.

Would she be the horse of the year or would that depend on who she beats? I would think beating a horse like Sea The Stars would carry more weight than horses like Einstein.

Who decides this or is the Breeders Cup Classic winner sort of the horse of the year by default?

Is it true Jess Jackson bought voters with cases of wine last year and that is why Curlin got it over Zenyatta?

I brought this up last month, Summer Bird is the only horse that could knock off RA for HOY, though admittidely it is remote with voters most likely swooning at her this yr. If he can win the JCGC convincingly, and then win the BC convincingly he may sway some votes away from her, in essence it's not enough that he wins these 2 races but do so in an Arazi like fashion.

Zenyatta has zero chance at HOY with her 09 campaign.

[GPK]

Originally Posted by dean smith

I hate to disagree with you, Coach Pants. After all, you are the most electrifying poster in all of message boarding.

But I think John "The Fat Man" Campos deserves more respect. He did train Kentucky Derby winner Pleasant Colony.

What does training Pleasant Colony have to do with garnering respect? Chuck trained Hacker Craft, but I have a helluva lot more respect for him.

[King Glorious]

It's a closed case already but if Zenyatta were to beat a field that included Summer Bird and Mine that Bird and Macho Again (the same males Rachel beat) in addition to Rail Trip, Einstein, and whichever of the top Europeans that come over (especially if Sea the Stars was in that group), she'd get my vote if I had one. She wouldn't have accomplished as much during the entire season but I'd think she'd have proven she could beat the same horses as Rachel and even better ones.

[Revidere]

Zenyatta should have been Horse of the Year last year. Curlin won the "Horse of the Year lifetime achievement award". It was the Olympic Ice Skating Campaign. Tried something out of the box twice, rewarded for failure twice.

His ONLY win of merit was in Dubai.

You guys are a trip. You're killing Zenyatta's competition. Besides Einstein and Well Armed, who did Curlin beat last year? Divine Park? Past the Point?

He received accolades for losing on Turf because "they tried something special". He was lauded in defeat for losing the Breeder's Cup because it was run on "plastic".

Which begs the question, which HOY in the last 10 years had the weakest competition? Favorite Trick? St. Liam? Ghostzapper? Azeri? Charismatic? Mineshaft?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Revidere

Zenyatta should have been Horse of the Year last year. Curlin won the "Horse of the Year lifetime achievement award". It was the Olympic Ice Skating Campaign. Tried something out of the box twice, rewarded for failure twice.

His ONLY win of merit was in Dubai.

You guys are a trip. You're killing Zenyatta's competition. Besides Einstein and Well Armed, who did Curlin beat last year? Divine Park? Past the Point?

He received accolades for losing on Turf because "they tried something special". He was lauded in defeat for losing the Breeder's Cup because it was run on "plastic".

Which begs the question, which HOY in the last 10 years had the weakest competition? Favorite Trick? St. Liam? Ghostzapper? Azeri? Charismatic? Mineshaft?

Can't argue with this at all. Curlin was a disgusting choice for HOY last year to me. As for the question of who had the weakest competition, it would be Favorite Trick but by technicality, he doesn't qualify since that was more than 10 years ago. I would say it would be Charismatic or Mineshaft. Mineshaft only faced one other horse that was considered among the top seven horses in his division that year and he lost that one race. He won HOY without defeating a single other horse that was top seven in his division. That's incredible to me.

[DaTruth]

If Sea the Stars is going to be the yardstick, does this mean that a mare who finishes ahead of him in the Classic (assuming he runs a decent race) should get the Eclipse for older filly or mare regardless of what zenyatta does in the Ladies Classic?

[CSC]

What effect if any will Rachel's early exit in mid-late summer have on the voting for HOY? I know many will say none, but we don't know that for sure...there are bound to be some terrific performances that will no doubt leave an ideliable mark on horseracing fans in the BC, BC preview/preps and beyond.

[TropicalStorm]

I think the real question voters would have to ask if she won the Classic and retired undefeated is this:

Has any horse ever won the Breeders Cup Classic and Breeders Cup Distaff and retired undefeated? Obviously not. That is why I think Zenyatta would be a lock for horse of the year if she found a way to win the Classic.

[DaTruth]

Originally Posted by CrossfireHurricane

I think the real question voters would have to ask if she won the Classic and retired undefeated is this:

Has any horse ever won the Breeders Cup Classic and Breeders Cup Distaff and retired undefeated? Obviously not. That is why I think Zenyatta would be a lock for horse of the year if she found a way to win the Classic.

They may be occupied with other questions such as when was the last time a filly won the Preakness and the Woodward.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by DaTruth

They may be occupied with other questions such as when was the last time a filly won the Preakness and the Woodward.

or the last time a 3 yo filly won three gr 1's over males, including one over older males.
since the award is for top horse of the year, not of the day, and not of the bc, i would have to think that rachels accomplishments outshine anyone else in north america. she's run as many races vs males this year as zenyatta has run all year. top that off with a record-breaking performance at oaklawn, a double digit win in the oaks, and i believe it's seven tracks she's run over this year in her eight wins.

the whole point is probably moot, since i really don't see zenyatta attempting 10f vs males, since it would be her first time for both.

[slotdirt]

I'm so over Rachel Alexandra vs. Zenyatta threads. Where's the Jonesboro thread? His next start is more interesting to me than debating this same argument yet another time.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

I'm so over Rachel Alexandra vs. Zenyatta threads. Where's the Jonesboro thread? His next start is more interesting to me than debating this same argument yet another time.

so why visit one of the threads?

[slotdirt]

Originally Posted by Danzig

so why visit one of the threads?

It seemed more interesting than the "Happy Birthday DrugS" thread?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

It seemed more interesting than the "Happy Birthday DrugS" thread?

nothing is ever more interesting then the birthday threads! just ask btw!

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by CSC

What effect if any will Rachel's early exit in mid-late summer have on the voting for HOY? I know many will say none, but we don't know that for sure...there are bound to be some terrific performances that will no doubt leave an ideliable mark on horseracing fans in the BC, BC preview/preps and beyond.

How many times has it happened where a clear a seemingly runaway leader has stopped racing before year's end and had another horse come in and take it away from them? Off the top of my head, I can only think of Smarty Jones in 2004 losing out to Ghostzapper and in that case, Smarty ended in June. Rachel raced into September. Other than that, I can think of a few horses that ended their season early and still won the title. I don't go back as far as others but I know that it didn't hurt:

Spend a Buck
Criminal Type
Holy Bull
Charismatic
Point Given

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Danzig

or the last time a 3 yo filly won three gr 1's over males, including one over older males.
since the award is for top horse of the year, not of the day, and not of the bc, i would have to think that rachels accomplishments outshine anyone else in north america. she's run as many races vs males this year as zenyatta has run all year. top that off with a record-breaking performance at oaklawn, a double digit win in the oaks, and i believe it's seven tracks she's run over this year in her eight wins.

the whole point is probably moot, since i really don't see zenyatta attempting 10f vs males, since it would be her first time for both.

The part in bold is what makes this a debate that has no clear answer. If the award is truly for the most accomplished horse of that year, then Rachel is a clear winner. But the criteria is not clear enough, IMO. It says it's to be awarded to the best horse to race in North America and is open to all horses that have run at least one time in NA. You get a situation like last year. I thought that even with his running only once and her running only once, it was extremely clear that Raven's Pass and Goldikova were the best 3yo male and female to run in NA last year. Even with a win in the Classic, Zenyatta won't have accomplished as much as Rachel this year but by beating a better set of horses, even if it's only once, she can still make a very valid claim to being the best horse to run in this country this year. As I've said many times, if people want the award to be for the entire year, I'd have no problem with that but they need to change the criteria. To me, it's hypocrital to say that it's not about one day or one race after they've awarded many championships to horses simply because of one race.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

How many times has it happened where a clear a seemingly runaway leader has stopped racing before year's end and had another horse come in and take it away from them? Off the top of my head, I can only think of Smarty Jones in 2004 losing out to Ghostzapper and in that case, Smarty ended in June. Rachel raced into September. Other than that, I can think of a few horses that ended their season early and still won the title. I don't go back as far as others but I know that it didn't hurt:

Spend a Buck
Criminal Type
Holy Bull
Charismatic
Point Given

Isnt the voting supposed to be based on a whole year? Not just the fall campaign? Rachel's 8 wins in 8 races will be equal or more than the other HOY contenders by the end of the year. Shoot.. Z is running throughout the fall and still wont come close to 8 races and 8 wins. Rachel has put in a full years work by todays standards already, who cares if she needs a break now?

Also, as much as I love Smarty Jones, Rachel's resume has been more impressive IMO.

[Linny]

The original post posed a question based on a premise. "If Zenyatta win the Classic..." While I don't think the premise is valid (I don't think she'll run there and if she does I don't think she'll win) if I choose to play in this thread I have to accept the premise. If Z beats Summer Bird, Mine That Bird, Sea The Stars, Macho Again, Rail Trip, Einstein anyother Euro challenger and the rest of the Poly specialists out there, she deserves HOY.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Isnt the voting supposed to be based on a whole year? Not just the fall campaign? Rachel's 8 wins in 8 races will be equal or more than the other HOY contenders by the end of the year. Shoot.. Z is running throughout the fall and still wont come close to 8 races and 8 wins. Rachel has put in a full years work by todays standards already, who cares if she needs a break now?

Also, as much as I love Smarty Jones, Rachel's resume has been more impressive IMO.

Again, I don't understand how people keep saying it's SUPPOSED TO BE BASED ON THE WHOLE YEAR when many champions have been named off of ONE RACE. Arazi was one of the three finalist for HOY in 1991 and only ran once here, in a 2yo restricted race for goodness sake. Singspiel won champion turf horse in 1996 and NEVER WON A RACE IN THE UNITED STATES. With that in mind, how can it be said that it's supposed to be based on the whole year? If it's based on the whole year, Arazi, Singspiel, Miesque, High Chaparral, Daylami.......the list goes on and on.......all shouldn't have won titles. They won titles because they proved on one day, in one race, that they were the best horse to race in their division in North America that year.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

The part in bold is what makes this a debate that has no clear answer. If the award is truly for the most accomplished horse of that year, then Rachel is a clear winner. But the criteria is not clear enough, IMO. It says it's to be awarded to the best horse to race in North America and is open to all horses that have run at least one time in NA. You get a situation like last year. I thought that even with his running only once and her running only once, it was extremely clear that Raven's Pass and Goldikova were the best 3yo male and female to run in NA last year. Even with a win in the Classic, Zenyatta won't have accomplished as much as Rachel this year but by beating a better set of horses, even if it's only once, she can still make a very valid claim to being the best horse to run in this country this year. As I've said many times, if people want the award to be for the entire year, I'd have no problem with that but they need to change the criteria. To me, it's hypocrital to say that it's not about one day or one race after they've awarded many championships to horses simply because of one race.

It is based on a years worth of work. Sure we have a turf horse here and there that comes over for the BC and blows away the field, and they get Turf Champion. But longshot winners of the BC usually dont get voted champ. I dont think Volponi did, not sure about Cat Thief but I also dont think it happened there either. Usually the horse that wins the BC has also had a very good campaign all year (like Curlin in 2007, Invasor, etc, etc).. so it makes sense for them to be champ.