Cap and Trade vote on Friday

[Riot]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

I agree that the report has to be looked at but instead of dismissing it simply because the guy is a economist makes no sense. Otherwise Al Gore should be suppressed do to him being a politician and a very bad one might I add.

Of course it makes sense to weigh the evaluation of a report in one field, in light of the evaluator not being competent within the field of study! Would you pay attention to the report by an OB-GYN evaluating the efficacy of doing cardiac ultrasounds to screen for occult cardiomyopathy in older men? Wouldn't that type of report have more weight coming from a cardiologist?

?? Al Gore is a politician who talked about an issue he put front and center in his campaign. He's not a scientist. Climate change, and the scientific discussion and investigation of it, went on no matter what Al Gore did or didn't do.

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by Riot

Of course it makes sense to weigh the evaluation of a report in one field, in light of the evaluator not being competent within the field of study! Would you pay attention to the report by an OB-GYN evaluating the efficacy of doing cardiac ultrasounds to screen for occult cardiomyopathy in older men?

?? Al Gore is a politician who talked about an issue he put front and center in his campaign. He's not a scientist. Climate change, and the scientific discussion and investigation of it, went on no matter what Al Gore did or didn't do.

i don't think we need to spend all that much time bothering with the pitcher's qualifications when what's been thrown is a slow curve over the fat part of the plate.

this is an un-peer reviewed article that cites as one source a blog.

apparently, if someone at nasa writes that the earth is flat, that needs to be included in any discussion of orbital mechanics.

Somehow I have the feeling if Science indicated that
the Earth is warming and it ended right there everyone
would feel a lot better.

As sort of a parallel:

Charles Darwin wrote an incredible study in which he presented
a mechanism for evolution. He did not invent the idea of evolution.
He gave so many observations to back up his idea (natural selection)
and was so forthright about what he did and did not understand it
set a standard for science books for public consumption.

Sadly this standard has been lost. The self critical nature of science does not
reveal itself well enough imo. Darwin also did not consider himself
a good debater so he left it up to others who understood the
implications of his work (Huxley) and realized how important it was.
Sometimes the people that speak out the most may not be
the experts. Some very good science people are fairly timid
people.

What bothers me about the anti-global warming science stuff
is a lack of self criticism. I did notice this was quite prevalent.
ANd I may be wrongly concluding the lack of self criticism is
occuring because of the politcal nature of this group. The
group of climate scientists that are a part of the warming trend
types are very careful to point out the immense nature of the study
and what data they would dearly love to have so that their studies
would be more complete.
However, there is again a group that are not climate people that
have seen massive changes in their field of study (the guys studying
Arctic wildlife especially) and they are clearly sounding loud warnings
based on their field and not the climate/temp of the Earth as a whole.

So for me it is understandable that a region that has been near and
dear to a group of people that adore its beauty would be quite upset
and look for a culprit too quickly. It has happened before. And in the
same light, people that have an economic interest in seeing global
warming go away dont want to see their way of making a living
hindered for what they perceive as fantasy made up soley
to scare people. Another 'the World is ending in 2012'. Or is it
2050?

I hope I live long enough to see how it all turns out.

[Antitrust32]

Here's the deal. Can we afford this crap and trade program? Obama says "it will cost the average American the cost of a postage stamp per day". Postage stamps are 44 cents. There are 365 days in the year. That equals $160 per year per individual. so if you have a family of four its $640 per year. The republicans say it will cost the average family $3100 per year. My electric company said it will cost me at LEAST $50 per month.. which is at $600 per year... and I'm just one person so thats more than $160.

I dont believe anyone... i really dont believe the White house's numbers, because everytime they say something it going to cost x amount.. it ends up costing y amount (like the health insurance plan). I dont believe the Republicans either because I have no reason to believe them. So I'm going to assume that $600 is the least its going to cost me and maybe $1500 is the most its going to cost me. I DONT HAVE THAT EXTRA MONEY FOR SOMETHING THAT WE ARENT PREPARED AS A COUNTRY TO CHANGE.

Thats what it boils down to with me. I dont think I'm the only one in this boat. Can our country afford this right now? I say no.

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Here's the deal. Can we afford this crap and trade program? Obama says "it will cost the average American the cost of a postage stamp per day". Postage stamps are 44 cents. There are 365 days in the year. That equals $160 per year per individual. so if you have a family of four its $640 per year. The republicans say it will cost the average family $3100 per year. My electric company said it will cost me at LEAST $50 per month.. which is at $600 per year... and I'm just one person so thats more than $160.

I dont believe anyone... i really dont believe the White house's numbers, because everytime they say something it going to cost x amount.. it ends up costing y amount (like the health insurance plan). I dont believe the Republicans either because I have no reason to believe them. So I'm going to assume that $600 is the least its going to cost me and maybe $1500 is the most its going to cost me. I DONT HAVE THAT EXTRA MONEY FOR SOMETHING THAT WE ARENT PREPARED AS A COUNTRY TO CHANGE.

Thats what it boils down to with me. I dont think I'm the only one in this boat. Can our country afford this right now? I say no.

As I stated in an earlier post, I think this adminstration is ready to move the country to alternative energy sources now. It will cost. But in the long run this administration thinks it is the forward looking way to go.

I dont think it is just about CO2 emissions. I personally think it is part of a larger effort to get us away importing oil, polluting with Coal burning. Part of the interim solution imo has to be nuclear power. I dont know how the plans for that are going.

I have no opinion on the timing. I just dont know enough.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by pgardn

As I stated in an earlier post, I think this adminstration is ready to move the country to alternative energy sources now. It will cost. But in the long run this administration thinks it is the forward looking way to go.

I dont think it is just about CO2 emissions. I personally think it is part of a larger effort to get us away importing oil, polluting with Coal burning. Part of the interim solution imo has to be nuclear power. I dont know how the plans for that are going.

I have no opinion on the timing. I just dont know enough.

Do you have an extra $600-$1500 per year to fund this? (dont need to answer obviously). I dont, and I'm not even as bad off as like 30% or more of the people out there... who all still need to use electricity. I think the timing is horrible, especially with 10% unemployment looming. But it will NOT pass through the senate... that is almost a gauruntee... shoot it barely got by the house and they love to pass everything. The bill spells political doom for the people who vote for it, and people are too worried about their careers as politicians.


Also, I'd like to know what kind of electricity we are going to be using and how we are going to get it. Are we going to fill the entire state of texas with wind turbine's?

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Also, I'd like to know what kind of electricity we are going to be using and how we are going to get it. Are we going to fill the entire state of texas with wind turbine's?

We did with oil rigs. They are everywhere. I cannot look out into the Gulf without seeing multiple rigs. But I digress...

Imo we have to make a switch from the present day coal burning which the majority of our electrical energy comes from. We have plenty of Coal. It is just ghastly stuff to deal with when you burn it.

imo
1. Cleaner burning Coal plants (expensive)
2. Nukes (expensive to begin with but cleaner and make up for expense)
3. Wind (15% of my power currently, very clean, but infant industry)
4. Solar (infancy and tougher than wind)
5. They have talked about using natural gas, oil shales in certain types of plants because it would be cleaner.
6. Geothermal, tidal power could be possible in rare places.

BTW
Wind power can work in lots more places that people think.
Germany has taken enormous advantage of wind, and this
country does not have near the climate we have for its use.

I have a special prejudice against bad air. San Antonio is on the verge
of losing Federal funds because our air has gotten so bad. Use to be
able to run without watching the weather to see if its safe. Cannot
even see the Hill Country clearly any more. We have two very large
Coal Burning facilities in addition to some nuke (south east of SA) and wind.
And we supposeldy burn some of the cleanest coal from Wyoming.

[geeker2]

You are going to see more modern combined cycle plants with 55% plus efficiency - they will start to replace the less efficient coal plant (lower 30% efficiency).

The US natural gas reserves are very high with yet untapped wells. With the more efficient plants these CC Plants will be dispatched before the less efficient coal plants. The issue is still the unknown pricing of CO2 fees and the ultimate regulation levels.

Renewables are great - but their ability to be dispatched is limited which means additional reserves of "fast start" will be required in tandem. The other issue with Renewables is the necessary infrastructure of transmission and distribution investment still required.

What does this all mean to us?

Expect higher residential electricity cost.....

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Here's the deal. Can we afford this crap and trade program? Obama says "it will cost the average American the cost of a postage stamp per day". Postage stamps are 44 cents. There are 365 days in the year. That equals $160 per year per individual. so if you have a family of four its $640 per year. The republicans say it will cost the average family $3100 per year. My electric company said it will cost me at LEAST $50 per month.. which is at $600 per year... and I'm just one person so thats more than $160.

I dont believe anyone... i really dont believe the White house's numbers, because everytime they say something it going to cost x amount.. it ends up costing y amount (like the health insurance plan). I dont believe the Republicans either because I have no reason to believe them. So I'm going to assume that $600 is the least its going to cost me and maybe $1500 is the most its going to cost me. I DONT HAVE THAT EXTRA MONEY FOR SOMETHING THAT WE ARENT PREPARED AS A COUNTRY TO CHANGE.

Thats what it boils down to with me. I dont think I'm the only one in this boat. Can our country afford this right now? I say no.

you need to be careful about anything obama says. he said no middle class tax increase, ran ads and bashed mccain for suggesting a tax on employee health benefits, and now is considering doing that very thing-which means there would be a tax increase.

yeah, change we can believe in. he's just another lying, talking out of both sides of his mouth politician.

[SOREHOOF]

Originally Posted by Danzig

you need to be careful about anything obama says. he said no middle class tax increase, ran ads and bashed mccain for suggesting a tax on employee health benefits, and now is considering doing that very thing-which means there would be a tax increase.

yeah, change we can believe in. he's just another lying, talking out of both sides of his mouth politician.

Our Liar-in-Chief is taking Chaves' side in the Honduran Coup. He took the Ayatollah's side in Iran. I view with total skepticism anything he says or does. Any crisis is a good crisis if it advances his agenda of bankrupting America for our own good. How much will a couple of these electric cars that "America really wants" increase the electric bill? Obama Motors......change you can believe in.

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by SOREHOOF

Our Liar-in-Chief is taking Chaves' side in the Honduran Coup. He took the Ayatollah's side in Iran. I view with total skepticism anything he says or does. Any crisis is a good crisis if it advances his agenda of bankrupting America for our own good. How much will a couple of these electric cars that "America really wants" increase the electric bill? Obama Motors......change you can believe in.

this is what happens when you start defending torture.

lacking principals outside of what's expedient right now, the right has now slipped so far down the slope that opposing a military coup of a democratically elected government is a bad thing.

on one hand you have a complete lack of backbone on large principals that matter. on the other an inflexible rigidity on preposterous personal morality even you can't live up to.

i look forward to your coup deposing obama and establishing the christian republic of jesusstan.

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by SOREHOOF

Our Liar-in-Chief is taking Chaves' side in the Honduran Coup. He took the Ayatollah's side in Iran. I view with total skepticism anything he says or does. Any crisis is a good crisis if it advances his agenda of bankrupting America for our own good. How much will a couple of these electric cars that "America really wants" increase the electric bill? Obama Motors......change you can believe in.

Why?..Because you are not a Liberal..or because you hate everything that Obama advances?...or both? Either way, you are a poster child for why we shouldn't elect anyone you vote for..

I love good arguements with conservatives, but please say something that makes sense..Don't make me resort to random right wing Nancy Reagan insults..as easy as they might be.