Good Jub Obama!

[Honu]

Originally Posted by Cardus

There was no federal funding of embryonic stem cell research prior to George W. Bush's presidency. (Clinton had lifted the ban for one year but rescinded that order.) So how is it that Bush is such a moral wretch for being the first president to allow federal funding? Clinton must have been infinitely more evil than Bush, right? The level of idiocy -- or intellecutal dishonesty stemming from political persuasion -- from embryonic stem cell research proponents is enormous on this point.

Scientists were forced in a good way to find other , maybe even better research with stem cells because the federal government didnt pay for embryonic research. Just because the federal government didnt pay for the research doesnt mean that there wasnt any happening , it just meant that instead of tax dollars paying for it , it was most ikely privately funded.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Honu

Scientists were forced in a good way to find other , maybe even better research with stem cells because the federal government didnt pay for embryonic research. Just because the federal government didnt pay for the research doesnt mean that there wasnt any happening , it just meant that instead of tax dollars paying for it , it was most ikely privately funded.

or in otherwards more efficently and responsibily funded.

[Honu]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

or in otherwards more efficently and responsibily funded.

Exactly , we are headed down a pretty scarey road for our country with all the federaly funded programs that are being enacted.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Honu

Scientists were forced in a good way to find other , maybe even better research with stem cells because the federal government didnt pay for embryonic research. Just because the federal government didnt pay for the research doesnt mean that there wasnt any happening , it just meant that instead of tax dollars paying for it , it was most ikely privately funded.

Do you think that the US Government should never fund science?

[Honu]

Originally Posted by Riot

Do you think that the US Government should never fund science?

Im not saying that , are you saying the federal government should fund everything to ever be researched? I think you are , where the hell are we going to come up with the money for anything after we bailout the banks, the homowners, wall street and everything else.

[Riot]

Im not saying that

Yes, I knew that. That's why I asked what your opinion is.

Do you think the government should fund any science at all? Yes, no, some?

are you saying the federal government should fund everything to ever be researched?

Huh? No, I asked you if you thought the government should fund any science at all.

But as you segued there, no, I don't think the federal government should fund everything ever to be researched.

I think you are , where the hell are we going to come up with the money for anything after we bailout the banks, the homowners, wall street and everything else

You think I am ... ? I wasn't talking about all of the above.

I was just asking you if you thought the government should fund any science at all.

[Honu]

Originally Posted by Cardus

I understand that very well; I agree with you.

And I was agreeing with you . My father just had some stem cell treatment for his Multiple Myloma (there is no cure) he is in remission and there is no sign of the cancer, for now, they actually took stem cells from his own body and froze them and then re-entered them back into his body via his sternum after they zapped him down to nothing with radiation.

[timmgirvan]

There is very strong evidence that shows ADULT stem cells are more usable in genetic work. Last week, there was a warning about infant cells being unable to fight off disease or something akin to that.

Originally Posted by Honu

And I was agreeing with you . My father just had some stem cell treatment for his Multiple Myloma (there is no cure) he is in remission and there is no sign of the cancer, for now, they actually took stem cells from his own body and froze them and then re-entered them back into his body via his sternum after they zapped him down to nothing with radiation.

And there is no way, absolutely no way, your father
would have received this treatement unless basic research
way back in the 60's-70's FUNDED COMPLETELY by the federal
government. The federal government sets the table in basic
research, the private companies spawn and feed from this.
This has been going on for a very long time in this country.
Sorry to disappoint with the news.

Next time anyone has a loved one that goes in for a bypass,
or actually needs any coronary work, please refuse it.
Refuse it because the basic research was FUNDED BY THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT on dogs. THis set the stage way back for
private companies to create fancy valves and methods we see today.

HUGE misconceptions about how basic Science works
in this country. FEDERAL GRANTS for basic research
is ABSOLUTELY necessary for this country to stay in
the lead in Science.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by pgardn

FEDERAL GRANTS for basic research
is ABSOLUTELY necessary for this country to stay in
the lead in Science.

We are no longer in the lead in science. Many of our best scientific brains have been fleeing to other countries. Countries that don't confuse science and politics as one and the same.

Originally Posted by Riot

We are no longer in the lead in science. Many of our best scientific brains have been fleeing to other countries. Countries that don't confuse science and politics as one and the same.

We have lost some very good scientists to Europe
on basic research with atoms.

But overall, we are still way ahead of the game.
Way ahead. And we will continue to be as long
as our government plays a basic role.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

We are no longer in the lead in science. Many of our best scientific brains have been fleeing to other countries. Countries that don't confuse science and politics as one and the same.

What evidence is there that this is true? Our best brains have been fleeing to where? Wouldnt a great deal of top scientific minds be working for private industry or universities?

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

What evidence is there that this is true? Our best brains have been fleeing to where? Wouldnt a great deal of top scientific minds be working for private industry or universities?

We have "lost" some very good Physics people to Europe.
They are still US citizens, but they work for the Europeans.
The large Hadron collider lured them away.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

We have "lost" some very good Physics people to Europe.
They are still US citizens, but they work for the Europeans.
The large Hadron collider lured them away.

You dont need to be an expert in science to know that far more foreigners come here to study and work than our citizens leave.

Originally Posted by pgardn

We have "lost" some very good Physics people to Europe.
They are still US citizens, but they work for the Europeans.
The large Hadron collider lured them away.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

What evidence is there that this is true? Our best brains have been fleeing to where? Wouldnt a great deal of top scientific minds be working for private industry or universities?

Uh, the fact that people have indeed left the US and gone to other countries that allow more extensive stem cell research ??

Yes, some have left Universities and gone private in the US.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by IrishofNDMan

Well when it came to voting it was put together as one and it makes me sick that some people would actually vote for this and that our "leader" would support it!!

Irish - you are right, some people mistakenly lump this as abortion.

Embryonic stem cells do not come from aborted fetuses, they come from eggs fertilized "in vitro" (means out of the body, in a petri dish) in fertilization clinics, but that are not used and are thrown out. These thrown out cells are 2-4 day old blastocytes.

These thrown out cells - with the permission of the donors - can be used instead in stem cell research.

I have used stem cells derived from a patient's own fat and injected it back into the patients hip joints to fight hip dysplasia (dog). We use adipose-based (fat) stem cells in horses (the patients own fat) to help repair tendons (have been doing that for several years). We can also use the pateint's own blood-based cell lines.

I know Chuck has purchased a horse in the past at the F-S sale, that came with the bit of information that it has it's own blood from it's own umbilical cord (from it's birth) saved in a laboratory. That blood can hopefully be used someday to derive it's own stem cells if the horse needs it.

But adult stem cells are not the same as embryonic stem cells - you can't always get the same things from them.

This summer there will start trials for people with certain spinal cord injuries. In the laboratory, mice with certain spinal cord injuries that cause them to be paralyzed have had certain stem cells injected, and the cells grew into the cells the mice needed, and the mice were healed and could walk.

Imagine if Christopher Reeve (remember, he got a paralyzing spinal cord injury in a fall from his horse, that made him a quadriplegic and ultimately ended up causing his death from pneumonia) - imagine if someone like this, with this terrible injury, could have been injected with stem cells that regrew the damaged neural tissue, and that paralyzed patient could walk again. How wondrous and great would that be!

[Honu]

Originally Posted by pgardn

And there is no way, absolutely no way, your father
would have received this treatement unless basic research
way back in the 60's-70's FUNDED COMPLETELY by the federal
government. The federal government sets the table in basic
research, the private companies spawn and feed from this.
This has been going on for a very long time in this country.
Sorry to disappoint with the news.

Next time anyone has a loved one that goes in for a bypass,
or actually needs any coronary work, please refuse it.
Refuse it because the basic research was FUNDED BY THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT on dogs. THis set the stage way back for
private companies to create fancy valves and methods we see today.

HUGE misconceptions about how basic Science works
in this country. FEDERAL GRANTS for basic research
is ABSOLUTELY necessary for this country to stay in
the lead in Science.

Oh so now you are trying to say there hasnt been any basic research without government funding , so how the hell have they managed to research what they already have in embryonics without the goverment ???? Somehow they have have managed to do so .
Your news doesnt disappoint me but your condencending tone does ...Im thankful my father gets to live about another 7 years before the Myloma returns and kills him , You f u cking assho le.

Originally Posted by Honu

Oh so now you are trying to say there hasnt been any basic research without government funding , so how the hell have they managed to research what they already have in embryonics without the goverment ???? Somehow they have have managed to do so .
Your news doesnt disappoint me but your condencending tone does ...Im thankful my father gets to live about another 7 years before the Myloma returns and kills him , You f u cking assho le.

I will get back to you in another way.
Sorry about your father.

[IrishofNDMan]

This is what makes Obama such an idiot!!!!! Abortion is wrong and someone needs to shine some light on this. People try saying abortion is an alright practice because it's really not a person yet?? Are you f'ing kidding me! If you've heard of partial birth abortion you know how wrong it is. The baby is jacked up with drugs to force the women into early labor and the baby is born without a chance, and sometimes even lives as long as 45 minutes where a nurse will hold the baby and give it what they call "comfort care" before it dies.

If I remember there was once a day when a black man was not considered to be a person and was killed and tortured for this, until someone finally shed some light saying that they are people just like us.

Jews were once considered not to be a person and they were tortured and murdered until finally someone shed some light that they are just like us and they were finally treated fairly.

It's time that someone sheds some light on abortion and an end is put to it. If this practice is considered acceptable than I guess I am not all that proud to be an American.