Duke/Davidson

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

The NBA is f'ing boring, packaged nonsense. Of course the players are great, but with some exceptions, they're all set for life trillionaires with guaranteed contracts whose biggest concerns are not spraining their ankles and what cheerleader they can bang after the game. The crowds are terrible, the announcers are worse and all the league cares about is marketing its superstars. The game is secondary, so the ability of the players really doesn't get me off.

Maybe you enjoy hearing about how epic every one of LeBron's bowel movements was, but I don't.

And you're wrong about Curry.

Go to a game and watch 2 good teams play and tell me that the basketball isn't amazing. I'm sure all those major college teams are full of great student athletes who help grandmas cross the street and volunteer at food kitchens for the poor in their spare time. College basketball is all about fake drama and the coaches. All college basketball cares about is exploiting the "student athletes" in order to score a big TV deal with the networks.

The fact is except in rare instances in college basketball you are simply watching uniforms play each other, the good players dont stay long enough to where you get to know them and who wants to watch bad players.

I am not wrong about Curry and we will revisit this again. Ricky Rubio, now there is a guard to get excited about.

[Cannon Shell]

Curry hopes to be as good

[Cannon Shell]

More like it

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Go to a game and watch 2 good teams play and tell me that the basketball isn't amazing. I'm sure all those major college teams are full of great student athletes who help grandmas cross the street and volunteer at food kitchens for the poor in their spare time. College basketball is all about fake drama and the coaches. All college basketball cares about is exploiting the "student athletes" in order to score a big TV deal with the networks.

The fact is except in rare instances in college basketball you are simply watching uniforms play each other, the good players dont stay long enough to where you get to know them and who wants to watch bad players.

I am not wrong about Curry and we will revisit this again. Ricky Rubio, now there is a guard to get excited about.

Thanks for telling me to go to an NBA game. I've never been.

Again, you've missed my point. I don't care if NBA guys are assholes, my problem is that the NBA is so dry. It largely doesn't matter to these players whether they win or lose. That's gay, no matter how good the players are.

I cover high school basketball in the city and I enjoy the hell out of it, moreso than NBA games. Why? Because these kids live and die for basketball. Many of them are trying to play their way into a scholarship, others are just doing it because they love it. It's basketball at its purest, if not at its cleanest. There aren't seven zillion TV timeouts, halftime show inanity, or players that are treated like Gods. It's more than just some **** they have to do in order to get paid eight figures a year and secure endorsement deals.

College hoops is similar. Most kids aren't going to the NBA, and every season, thousands of players take their last steps on a basketball court in front of a crowd. Therefore, they're going to want to win more than NBA players, to keep their careers going. So they bust their asses and give us great games against other kids not wanting their careers to end. That's fake drama? What the hell would be real drama then?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Thanks for telling me to go to an NBA game. I've never been.

Again, you've missed my point. I don't care if NBA guys are assholes, my problem is that the NBA is so dry. It largely doesn't matter to these players whether they win or lose. That's gay, no matter how good the players are.

I cover high school basketball in the city and I enjoy the hell out of it, moreso than NBA games. Why? Because these kids live and die for basketball. Many of them are trying to play their way into a scholarship, others are just doing it because they love it. It's basketball at its purest, if not at its cleanest. There aren't seven zillion TV timeouts, halftime show inanity, or players that are treated like Gods. It's more than just some **** they have to do in order to get paid eight figures a year and secure endorsement deals.

College hoops is similar. Most kids aren't going to the NBA, and every season, thousands of players take their last steps on a basketball court in front of a crowd. Therefore, they're going to want to win more than NBA players, to keep their careers going. So they bust their asses and give us great games against other kids not wanting their careers to end. That's fake drama? What the hell would be real drama then?

I think that it is funny that you think that the best players in the world are not trying, they just go through the motions. You are letting all the periphrial stuff get in the way of the game on the court. College games are not well played basketball in most cases. The game was far better when the players stayed for 4 years. A team like North carolina is dominant simply because the players stay around and are talented for the NCAA level. Compare this period of UNC to the priod in the mid 80's where they has Jordan, Worthy, Perkins, etc and were not nearly as dominant. The game is just played at a lower level than it used to be. And dont bother with the NBA was better with Bird, magic etc because the truth was that there were only a few competitive clubs back then. There are 3 serious teams in the NBA this year and about 10 that arent far behind.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I think that it is funny that you think that the best players in the world are not trying, they just go through the motions. You are letting all the periphrial stuff get in the way of the game on the court. College games are not well played basketball in most cases. The game was far better when the players stayed for 4 years. A team like North carolina is dominant simply because the players stay around and are talented for the NCAA level. Compare this period of UNC to the priod in the mid 80's where they has Jordan, Worthy, Perkins, etc and were not nearly as dominant. The game is just played at a lower level than it used to be. And dont bother with the NBA was better with Bird, magic etc because the truth was that there were only a few competitive clubs back then. There are 3 serious teams in the NBA this year and about 10 that arent far behind.

I didn't say they're not trying, but theoretically it doesn't really matter if they win or lose. Some players get torn up over losses, I don't think most do. It can't be as important to them as it is to college hoops players. Plus like I said, the fans, announcers and referees are all terrible. There's more to basketball than the quality of play.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

I didn't say they're not trying, but theoretically it doesn't really matter if they win or lose. Some players get torn up over losses, I don't think most do. It can't be as important to them as it is to college hoops players. Plus like I said, the fans, announcers and referees are all terrible. There's more to basketball than the quality of play.

And if you think that clooege players get torn up over each loss you are sadly mistaken. You simply are repeating a myth that is untrue. Why wouldn't their JOB be more important than a college players? They have contracts that they are also playing for, they dont have lifetime deals. And I dont know what games you watch but the quality of announcers in the college game is pitiful.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

And if you think that clooege players get torn up over each loss you are sadly mistaken. You simply are repeating a myth that is untrue. Why wouldn't their JOB be more important than a college players? They have contracts that they are also playing for, they dont have lifetime deals. And I dont know what games you watch but the quality of announcers in the college game is pitiful.

Unless you're on a 10-day contract or an undrafted rookie, nobody's playing for any jobs in the NBA, and those guys barely get any playing time anyway. The amount of guaranteed money in the NBA is one of the reasons it's such a joke and so boring. It's also another reason why football kicks the crap out of it.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Unless you're on a 10-day contract or an undrafted rookie, nobody's playing for any jobs in the NBA, and those guys barely get any playing time anyway. The amount of guaranteed money in the NBA is one of the reasons it's such a joke and so boring. It's also another reason why football kicks the crap out of it.

I give up....

[SniperSB23]

Updated my tourney projection Phil, these are all based on final predicted records and final predicted RPI from RPIforecast.com which uses the Sagarin predictor to determine a probability for every game and likely final records. So if you have a gripe with the final records that isn't my call. For instance, I don't think Arkansas is an 8-8 team in the SEC like Sagarin does. Regardless, Notre Dame probably gets in but Cincy and Providence won't even be sniffing the bubble.

Last teams in

Seed Team Conf RPI Rec
11 Purdue B10 41.2 21-10
11 San Diego St. MWC 42.0 19-8
11 Notre Dame BE 53.3 18-11
11 Utah St. WAC 43.2 25-4
12 Rhode Island A10 50.8 23-8
12 Stanford P10 58.7 20-9
12 Arkansas SEC 59.7 20-9
12 Boston College ACC 63.8 20-11

First teams out
South Carolina SEC 62.7 20-9
Nevada Las Vegas MWC 53.9 21-9
Minnesota B10 54.9 19-10
Florida St. ACC 47.0 19-12
Michigan B10 47.2 18-12
Evansville MVC 57.2 17-9
Temple A10 46.0 18-12
Niagara MAAC 50.5 24-6
Creighton MVC 68.4 22-8
Southern California P10 68.7 18-12
Maryland ACC 57.1 18-12

Full list:

1 North Carolina ACC 4.5 25-4
1 Pittsburgh BE 3.5 26-4
1 Duke ACC 1.7 26-5
1 Connecticut BE 5.4 25-5
2 Oklahoma B12 10.3 25-6
2 Clemson ACC 9.3 25-5
2 Georgetown BE 10.3 22-7
3 Michigan St. B10 16.1 22-8
2 West Virginia BE 9.7 24-7
3 Arizona St. P10 18.0 24-6
3 Wake Forest ACC 16.7 23-6
3 Tennessee SEC 10.9 21-9
4 Gonzaga WCC 32.5 23-5
4 Missouri B12 18.8 24-6
4 Xavier A10 17.0 24-6
4 Memphis CUSA 21.1 24-7
5 Texas B12 21.4 21-9
5 Butler HOR 18.0 24-3
5 Illinois B10 22.8 23-8
5 Syracuse BE 22.6 22-8
6 Kansas B12 22.7 22-9
6 Villanova BE 28.5 22-9
6 California P10 31.6 23-8
6 UCLA P10 35.3 23-8
7 Brigham Young MWC 26.4 23-6
7 Washington P10 31.4 21-9
7 Marquette BE 31.6 22-9
7 Davidson SC 45.3 25-4
8 Dayton A10 32.8 25-6
8 Kentucky SEC 35.4 22-9
8 Utah MWC 25.0 21-8
8 Ohio St. B10 36.7 20-9
9 Baylor B12 25.9 21-8
9 Illinois St. MVC 38.5 25-4
9 Louisville BE 36.0 20-10
9 Florida SEC 39.7 23-8
10 Oklahoma St. B12 30.6 20-10
10 Miami FL ACC 40.3 18-10
10 Kansas St. B12 47.4 22-8
10 St. Mary's WCC 58.3 21-5
11 Purdue B10 41.2 21-10
11 San Diego St. MWC 42.0 19-8
11 Notre Dame BE 53.3 18-11
11 Utah St. WAC 43.2 25-4
12 Rhode Island A10 50.8 23-8
12 Stanford P10 58.7 20-9
12 Arkansas SEC 59.7 20-9
12 Boston College ACC 63.8 20-11
13 Siena MAAC 44.9 21-8
13 George Mason CAA 52.0 21-7
13 Miami OH MAC 52.3 19-9
13 Western Kentucky SB 85.5 18-10
14 Belmont ASUN 95.8 20-9
14 American PAT 96.5 18-10
14 Virginia Military Inst BS 98.0 19-6
14 Portland St. BSKY 98.0 19-7
15 Stephen F. Austin SLC 100.5 16-8
15 Vermont AE 104.5 21-8
15 North Dakota St. SUM 118.5 18-8
15 Cornell IVY 130.4 19-9
16 Pacific BW 131.3 17-9
16 Mount St. Mary's NEC 135.9 17-12
16 Jacksonville St. OVC 140.2 15-10
PI Morgan St. MEAC 153.3 17-12
PI Jackson St. SWAC 235.3 14-16

[philcski]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Thanks for telling me to go to an NBA game. I've never been.

Again, you've missed my point. I don't care if NBA guys are assholes, my problem is that the NBA is so dry. It largely doesn't matter to these players whether they win or lose. That's gay, no matter how good the players are.

I cover high school basketball in the city and I enjoy the hell out of it, moreso than NBA games. Why? Because these kids live and die for basketball. Many of them are trying to play their way into a scholarship, others are just doing it because they love it. It's basketball at its purest, if not at its cleanest. There aren't seven zillion TV timeouts, halftime show inanity, or players that are treated like Gods. It's more than just some **** they have to do in order to get paid eight figures a year and secure endorsement deals.

College hoops is similar. Most kids aren't going to the NBA, and every season, thousands of players take their last steps on a basketball court in front of a crowd. Therefore, they're going to want to win more than NBA players, to keep their careers going. So they bust their asses and give us great games against other kids not wanting their careers to end. That's fake drama? What the hell would be real drama then?

Yeah that pretty much sums it up for me.

I never get the sense that NBA players care whether they win or lose. Getting paid is really all that matters. There are a smattering who still play with the passion that would indicate the final tally is wins and losses rather than dollar signs (Dwayne Wade, KG come to mind) but for ever DW there is two Stephon Marburys. I don't doubt the fact that these guys are superior athletes, and that's about the only reason to watch IMO.

College hoops (and Chuck I'm surprised you don't feel the same way, being an alumni of an elite basketball school) inspires passion and pride in people and the players. You rarely see kids "take a night off", let alone a possession. The NCAA Tournament is the best team sporting event in the world- the NBA playoffs can't touch that, ever. I don't care if I cheer for a jersey in college hoops because it's MY jersey.

Also, they unceremoniously ripped the NBA teams out of my hometowns because "the TV market wasn't big enough" and moved them to San Diego and Cincy, I'll never forgive them for that, even if the first one was well before my lifetime.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by philcski

Yeah that pretty much sums it up for me.

I never get the sense that NBA players care whether they win or lose. Getting paid is really all that matters. There are a smattering who still play with the passion that would indicate the final tally is wins and losses rather than dollar signs (Dwayne Wade, KG come to mind) but for ever DW there is two Stephon Marburys. I don't doubt the fact that these guys are superior athletes, and that's about the only reason to watch IMO.

College hoops (and Chuck I'm surprised you don't feel the same way, being an alumni of an elite basketball school) inspires passion and pride in people and the players. You rarely see kids "take a night off", let alone a possession. The NCAA Tournament is the best team sporting event in the world- the NBA playoffs can't touch that, ever. I don't care if I cheer for a jersey in college hoops because it's MY jersey.

Also, they unceremoniously ripped the NBA teams out of my hometowns because "the TV market wasn't big enough" and moved them to San Diego and Cincy, I'll never forgive them for that, even if the first one was well before my lifetime.

I watch more NBA games than is probably healthy and rarely get the sense that players arent playing hard. Most dont engage in fake hustle but the on the court game is far superior to college. To me college basketball is now like a watered down grade 1, maybe the race will be close but that doesnt mean it was a great race. The ironic part about the whole issue is that college coaches have less control than ever over thier good players which has led to the game being played at a lower level. Maybe you guys are too young to see it but college basketball aint what it was. The tourney is great but the rest of the season is pretty much the same crap over and over.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I watch more NBA games than is probably healthy and rarely get the sense that players arent playing hard. Most dont engage in fake hustle but the on the court game is far superior to college. To me college basketball is now like a watered down grade 1, maybe the race will be close but that doesnt mean it was a great race. The ironic part about the whole issue is that college coaches have less control than ever over thier good players which has led to the game being played at a lower level. Maybe you guys are too young to see it but college basketball aint what it was. The tourney is great but the rest of the season is pretty much the same crap over and over.

I think this is very true. The myth that the NBA guys aren't playing hard is way off. People think a guy like Chris Bosh is not playing hard or Michael Beasley is not playing hard because of their facial expressions or the smoothness they play with. Let me assure you that you can't go for 22 and 10 a night in the NBA if you aren't playing hard. It's impossible. They are playing as hard as the college guys, if not harder. The main reason is because they still have pride. Nobody wants to get embarrassed out there on national tv. The thing is these guys are SO GOOD that they sometimes make the difficult look easy. But they are playing hard.

The analogy to a watered down grade one race is a good one. I have that argument all the time. We might see some close, exciting games during the year. A game like UNC vs. Duke may include five or more future NBA players and be high in quality. But it's NOTHING like an NBA game. The quality of play in the NBA is light years beyond anything you will ever see in a college game. Dick Vitale did an NBA game the other night and he couldn't be more clear in his assessment that the NBA game is much better quality wise.

You are also correct when it comes to talking about the influence coaches have. There are some exceptions, guys like Coach K, Roy Williams, Calhoun, Izzo, and a few others. But most of these guys have little influence when they have a star player. They know for the most part that the star will be one and done and if there's any chance of trying to get them back for a second or third year, they coddle to them like crazy. O.J. Mayo had free reign at USC. Kevin Durant didn't even attend school in the second semester at Texas. Don't believe all that rah rah, playing for my school stuff. It's probably true at Siena or Vermont or Penn...but it's not true at the big time schools. Those guy are playing mostly to showcase their games for the NBA or Europe.

[ateamstupid]

Um, there are usually what, five or six one-and-done players in college basketball every year? Yet at the "big time schools," it's totally about showcasing for the league? Nice generalization genius.

And if you watched Celtics/LeBron last night, you'd know why the NBA sucks. The focus isn't the game, and it never will be. Instead it's about promoting the star and trying to justify obnoxious ad campaigns. Dan Shulman thinks "we are all witnesses." Thanks Dan, good to know. Can I have it my way at Burger King too?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Um, there are usually what, five or six one-and-done players in college basketball every year? Yet at the "big time schools," it's totally about showcasing for the league? Nice generalization genius.

And if you watched Celtics/LeBron last night, you'd know why the NBA sucks. The focus isn't the game, and it never will be. Instead it's about promoting the star and trying to justify obnoxious ad campaigns. Dan Shulman thinks "we are all witnesses." Thanks Dan, good to know. Can I have it my way at Burger King too?

Well, I'm not a genius but thank you for thinking that I am. Now, there may be 5-6 one and done guys but there are also plenty of guys that are sophomores, juniors, and seniors that also trying to play for the NBA. Guys like Tyler Hansborough, Stephen Curry, Blake Griffin, etc., guys that are not one and done but will be obvious NBA players. There are several guys at schools like Duke, UNC, and UConn that aren't one and done that will be in the NBA and they are trying to hone the games and work on the things that NBA scouts tell them they need to work on. Curry is a prime example. Everyone knows he can shoot the ball better than most NBA players. But at his size, he's likely going to have to be a point guard in the league. So that's why he's playing that position in this year, to get more experience at it and show the pros that he can do it. And it's important to note on this subject that just because all of the players at the big time schools don't go to the NBA doesn't mean that they don't have the mentality that says they think they belong there. I'd bet that 90%+ of the guys that sign on at top 10-20 schools feel like they are going to be in the NBA after college. I also said that not only are they showcasing their skills for the NBA but for Europe too. There is very good money to be made playing in Europe and Russia.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I think this is very true. The myth that the NBA guys aren't playing hard is way off. People think a guy like Chris Bosh is not playing hard or Michael Beasley is not playing hard because of their facial expressions or the smoothness they play with. Let me assure you that you can't go for 22 and 10 a night in the NBA if you aren't playing hard. It's impossible. They are playing as hard as the college guys, if not harder. The main reason is because they still have pride. Nobody wants to get embarrassed out there on national tv. The thing is these guys are SO GOOD that they sometimes make the difficult look easy. But they are playing hard.

The analogy to a watered down grade one race is a good one. I have that argument all the time. We might see some close, exciting games during the year. A game like UNC vs. Duke may include five or more future NBA players and be high in quality. But it's NOTHING like an NBA game. The quality of play in the NBA is light years beyond anything you will ever see in a college game. Dick Vitale did an NBA game the other night and he couldn't be more clear in his assessment that the NBA game is much better quality wise.

You are also correct when it comes to talking about the influence coaches have. There are some exceptions, guys like Coach K, Roy Williams, Calhoun, Izzo, and a few others. But most of these guys have little influence when they have a star player. They know for the most part that the star will be one and done and if there's any chance of trying to get them back for a second or third year, they coddle to them like crazy. O.J. Mayo had free reign at USC. Kevin Durant didn't even attend school in the second semester at Texas. Don't believe all that rah rah, playing for my school stuff. It's probably true at Siena or Vermont or Penn...but it's not true at the big time schools. Those guy are playing mostly to showcase their games for the NBA or Europe.

I agree with much of what you say here. A couple of interesting things. You assure me that a guy that puts up 22 and 10 a night is playing hard. I Agree. There is only ONE guy in the NBA doing that though and thats Al Jefferson and I havent heard anyone ever accuse that guy of not playing hard.

You can't look at just stats to determine effort. Effort is more intangible. Effort is going to show more on the defensive end. Thats still hard to quantify though because points allowed on defense is more a reflection of tempo and style of play than effort.

Pros often do give a lot of effort but the other side of your argument would be that the pros dont have to put out as much effort to produce a decent game. Certainly not saying that is always the case but it is a valid argument.

Pro crowds are nowhere near as crazy and as influential as college crowds. Like it or not, crowd intensity can have a major impact on players. That does effect effort especially on the defensive end.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

I agree with much of what you say here. A couple of interesting things. You assure me that a guy that puts up 22 and 10 a night is playing hard. I Agree. There is only ONE guy in the NBA doing that though and thats Al Jefferson and I havent heard anyone ever accuse that guy of not playing hard.

You can't look at just stats to determine effort. Effort is more intangible. Effort is going to show more on the defensive end. Thats still hard to quantify though because points allowed on defense is more a reflection of tempo and style of play than effort.

Pros often do give a lot of effort but the other side of your argument would be that the pros dont have to put out as much effort to produce a decent game. Certainly not saying that is always the case but it is a valid argument.

Pro crowds are nowhere near as crazy and as influential as college crowds. Like it or not, crowd intensity can have a major impact on players. That does effect effort especially on the defensive end.

I didn't mean exactly 22 and 10. I was just saying a big time producer. It could be 25-8 or 19-12. Or even 27-7-7.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by philcski

Yeah that pretty much sums it up for me.

I never get the sense that NBA players care whether they win or lose. Getting paid is really all that matters. There are a smattering who still play with the passion that would indicate the final tally is wins and losses rather than dollar signs (Dwayne Wade, KG come to mind) but for ever DW there is two Stephon Marburys. I don't doubt the fact that these guys are superior athletes, and that's about the only reason to watch IMO.

College hoops (and Chuck I'm surprised you don't feel the same way, being an alumni of an elite basketball school) inspires passion and pride in people and the players. You rarely see kids "take a night off", let alone a possession. The NCAA Tournament is the best team sporting event in the world- the NBA playoffs can't touch that, ever. I don't care if I cheer for a jersey in college hoops because it's MY jersey.

Also, they unceremoniously ripped the NBA teams out of my hometowns because "the TV market wasn't big enough" and moved them to San Diego and Cincy, I'll never forgive them for that, even if the first one was well before my lifetime.

unless you root for Arizona.... I'm really dont care for college or pro basketball... but its the best sport to play!!!

I started going to the U of A in '01. The year that Salim Stoudamire hit that shot against OK State in the Sweet 16... (then they blew like a 14 pt lead to Illinois w/ like 3 mins left in the Elite 8)... was the only year I was proud of the Arizona bball squad.

They always played the worst defense. It was all about "me me me" it seemed like... and they take nights off whenever they feel like it.

Lute Olson was a poor college BBall coach in this decade.... granted he had off court issues this whole decade also.

I'm MUCH more of an Arizona football fan than basketball. And our football team SUCKED the whole decade until 2008.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Go to a game and watch 2 good teams play and tell me that the basketball isn't amazing. I'm sure all those major college teams are full of great student athletes who help grandmas cross the street and volunteer at food kitchens for the poor in their spare time. College basketball is all about fake drama and the coaches. All college basketball cares about is exploiting the "student athletes" in order to score a big TV deal with the networks.

The fact is except in rare instances in college basketball you are simply watching uniforms play each other, the good players dont stay long enough to where you get to know them and who wants to watch bad players.

I am not wrong about Curry and we will revisit this again. Ricky Rubio, now there is a guard to get excited about.

We get to watch the Knicks play.

It's less entertaining than watching brainless pidgeons chase stale bread around a McDonald's garbage.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by philcski

We get to watch the Knicks play.

It's less entertaining than watching brainless pidgeons chase stale bread around a McDonald's garbage.

The knicks dont count...still radioactive due to isiah poisoning...need a few more years to be safe to watch on a regular basis again.