Larry Jones gets first drug positive ever

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

What kind of fine or penalty exactly do you want? You guys seem to want blood but if this is the guys first violation in 25 years what exactly should happen to him? We dont know for sure but the medication in question is a legal drug that was probably found in a trace level above the allowable level. Calling him a cheater is a bit harsh especially considering his record. I admit I am a little skeptical about Jones and his seemingly meteroic rise from Ellis Park and his often strange form reversals. But this is hardly the smoking gun. I would like to know what "racing", outside of having a better system of testing and being a bit more open about what is happening with that testing, can do to avoid having positive tests?

i wasn't talking about jones specifically. it seems that every time something happens like this, there are folks who would rather it all go away, rather than have bad press. there are cheaters in this sport, some are very high profile, with top horses on the track. but now larry jones is in the mix, and some don't want to face the fact that his horse tested over. how it happened, i don't know. but this sport allows folks like steve asmussen and rick dutrow, with countless black marks on their record, continue to do business as usual.

so, my point in the post you replied to was that it's not the media's fault if they have a story. it's this sports fault for not taking the whole drug issue more seriously-both with what should and shouldn't be allowed, as well as WHO should still be allowed.

i'm waiting, as i'm sure you are, for exactly what kind of overage they are talking about. we all know some horses are given legal meds that must have cleared by race day, and don't. now, if this is a microscopic amount, considering jones' complete lack of past positives, i'd say he should be treated lightly since it's a first offense--but only if BOTH parts of that are true.

regarding what 'racing' can do, for starters they can show the worst repeat offenders the door. maybe the rate of positives would drop with their departure.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i wasn't talking about jones specifically. it seems that every time something happens like this, there are folks who would rather it all go away, rather than have bad press. there are cheaters in this sport, some are very high profile, with top horses on the track. but now larry jones is in the mix, and some don't want to face the fact that his horse tested over. how it happened, i don't know. but this sport allows folks like steve asmussen and rick dutrow, with countless black marks on their record, continue to do business as usual.

so, my point in the post you replied to was that it's not the media's fault if they have a story. it's this sports fault for not taking the whole drug issue more seriously-both with what should and shouldn't be allowed, as well as WHO should still be allowed.

i'm waiting, as i'm sure you are, for exactly what kind of overage they are talking about. we all know some horses are given legal meds that must have cleared by race day, and don't. now, if this is a microscopic amount, considering jones' complete lack of past positives, i'd say he should be treated lightly since it's a first offense--but only if BOTH parts of that are true.

Excellent point. Those who want it to "go away" are being very short sighted and are very much being part of the problem. There are cheaters in this sport and they must be dealt with. On one hand you have the attitude of not being able to catch Al Capone for murder and everything else, so you get him for tax evasion. OK, I see the need. OTOH, I just read in the paper that a guy I went to school with plea bargained for 13 months and a $7500 fine -- for bribing a public official with a $4300 payment. No mention or closure on the charges where he bribed another public official $250,000, or the $100,000, or the free addition on a home, and so on.

Those who want to lablel Jones as public enemy # 1, lifelong cheater, I told you so, etc. -- very transparent. Those who don't want to face the reality that he got a clenbuterol positive -- guess what? Also, very transparent. However, your point is excellent in that it shows both origins of both problems. Well, different origin, same problem.

Eric

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i wasn't talking about jones specifically. it seems that every time something happens like this, there are folks who would rather it all go away, rather than have bad press. there are cheaters in this sport, some are very high profile, with top horses on the track. but now larry jones is in the mix, and some don't want to face the fact that his horse tested over. how it happened, i don't know. but this sport allows folks like steve asmussen and rick dutrow, with countless black marks on their record, continue to do business as usual.

so, my point in the post you replied to was that it's not the media's fault if they have a story. it's this sports fault for not taking the whole drug issue more seriously-both with what should and shouldn't be allowed, as well as WHO should still be allowed.

i'm waiting, as i'm sure you are, for exactly what kind of overage they are talking about. we all know some horses are given legal meds that must have cleared by race day, and don't. now, if this is a microscopic amount, considering jones' complete lack of past positives, i'd say he should be treated lightly since it's a first offense--but only if BOTH parts of that are true.

regarding what 'racing' can do, for starters they can show the worst repeat offenders the door. maybe the rate of positives would drop with their departure.

What's not surprising is that the guys who are the big cheaters are usually the same guys who are always getting the overages. The reason is obvious. These guys are always pushing the envelope. They want to take every edge they can get whether it's with legal or illegal drugs.

What some of these guys will do is keep slightly increasing the dose of a legal drug or a milkshake until they get hit with an overage. That way they pretty much know what they can give without getting a positive. The problem is that different horses metabolize at different rates, so if they try to cut it too close they may come back with a positive. That is probably how Doug O'Neil got that positive earlier this year.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

What's not surprising is that the guys who are the big cheaters are usually the same guys who are always getting the overages. The reason is obvious. These guys are always pushing the envelope. They want to take every edge they can get whether it's with legal or illegal drugs.

What some of these guys will do is keep slightly increasing the dose of a legal drug or a milkshake until they get hit with an overage. That way they pretty much know what they can give without getting a positive. The problem is that different horses metabolize at different rates, so if they try to cut it too close they may come back with a positive. That is probably how Doug O'Neil got that positive earlier this year.

This post is dead on. Many of these "positives" with otherwise legal medications are not as innocent as several on this board would like to portray them.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

What's not surprising is that the guys who are the big cheaters are usually the same guys who are always getting the overages. The reason is obvious. These guys are always pushing the envelope. They want to take every edge they can get whether it's with legal or illegal drugs.

What some of these guys will do is keep slightly increasing the dose of a legal drug or a milkshake until they get hit with an overage. That way they pretty much know what they can give without getting a positive. The problem is that different horses metabolize at different rates, so if they try to cut it too close they may come back with a positive. That is probably how Doug O'Neil got that positive earlier this year.

no doubt in my mind that's what happened in this case as well. look at breeders for example who try to get mares in cover as early as possible, to shoot for a foal date as close to jan 1 as possible-but of course not before then-but sometimes, they get caught out when the foal comes early and they fudge the birth date. same thing.

and probably how o'neill got tagged last year as well...then there's the frankel/lasix issue-his horse (think it was intercontinental) got her shot way too close to post time, so the vet lied on the paperwork. but they got caught, purse money redistributed...pretty blatant stuff right there.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Danzig

then there's the frankel/lasix issue-his horse (think it was intercontinental) got her shot way too close to post time, so the vet lied on the paperwork. but they got caught, purse money redistributed...pretty blatant stuff right there.

Actually, Intercontinental's victory in the Palomar at Del Mar was upheld by the stewards. Furthermore, her lasix injection was 20 minutes late, still well over 3 hours from post time (in CA it must be given no later than 4 hours out). Some states, including Delaware, allow lasix administration up to 3 hours prior to post.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Actually, Intercontinental's victory in the Palomar at Del Mar was upheld by the stewards. Furthermore, her lasix injection was 20 minutes late, still well over 3 hours from post time (in CA it must be given no later than 4 hours out). Some states, including Delaware, allow lasix administration up to 3 hours prior to post.

really? last i saw, they ruled against intercontinental-maybe i missed an appeal or something.

and late is late, no excuses. i think the bigger offense was the vet lying, not the late injection.

just looked it up--they said the horse should have been scratched, but decided she didn't get an edge over her competition due to the late injection. order of finish stayed the same, but the vet was fined $750.

[PeteMugg]

If someone gets caught cheating, then it is what it is. But how sad that someone question a guy because he reached the upper tier after such a humble start. Thought that's what made this country great.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by PeteMugg

If someone gets caught cheating, then it is what it is. But how sad that someone question a guy because he reached the upper tier after such a humble start. Thought that's what made this country great.

It is just that he was a trainer so long in KY and never even did that well at CD or KEE. He relocates to Delaware and he simply cant lose. I understand that he has much better horses now but I cant ever remember an example of a trainer that trained at a lower level track with modest success that rose so quickly to after so long. Hey, he has a damn clean record but it is as hard to understand his rapid ascension as it was to comprehend that Brady Andeson once hit 50 HR's in a year.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i wasn't talking about jones specifically. it seems that every time something happens like this, there are folks who would rather it all go away, rather than have bad press. there are cheaters in this sport, some are very high profile, with top horses on the track. but now larry jones is in the mix, and some don't want to face the fact that his horse tested over. how it happened, i don't know. but this sport allows folks like steve asmussen and rick dutrow, with countless black marks on their record, continue to do business as usual.

so, my point in the post you replied to was that it's not the media's fault if they have a story. it's this sports fault for not taking the whole drug issue more seriously-both with what should and shouldn't be allowed, as well as WHO should still be allowed.

I think every sport, business, indusrty, etc would rather the story just go away than have bad press, no? I mean is the NFL thrilled they have Spygate? Was baseball happy to have to issue the Mitchell report? I agree that racing on the whole does a poor job of spinning the negative, usually no one says anything, but where is the outrage at the NFL when Shaun Merriman gets a 4 game suspension for steroids? Did he not "cheat" the bettors who bet the the opposing teams? I'm not condoning anything but saying that there is a strong possibility that this positive was not intentional (Squires is seeing ghosts and maybe he will begin to better understand the issue that he loves to speak so freely about) and as such the penalty will fit the crime. I'm sure there will be people who think it wasnt enough regardless of what they give him outside of a beheading.

The "sport" cant necessarily just get rid of guys like the ones you named. It simply isnt that easy to do. Everybody wants to point fingers at this industry in regards to "throwing people out" yet they forget that baseball never "threw out" Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Steve Howe, or Doc Gooden. Basketball didn't "throw out" Latrell Spreewell or Ron Artest. They all come back. There are these dudes called lawyers and these things called rights and it simply isnt easy to get rid of people because the courts seemingly always give in.

We all know that the media is shameless and will take advantage of any negative story it can. But that doesnt make them much different than Congress who will surely slip this little mishap into the next hearing.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I think every sport, business, indusrty, etc would rather the story just go away than have bad press, no? I mean is the NFL thrilled they have Spygate? Was baseball happy to have to issue the Mitchell report? I agree that racing on the whole does a poor job of spinning the negative, usually no one says anything, but where is the outrage at the NFL when Shaun Merriman gets a 4 game suspension for steroids? Did he not "cheat" the bettors who bet the the opposing teams? I'm not condoning anything but saying that there is a strong possibility that this positive was not intentional (Squires is seeing ghosts and maybe he will begin to better understand the issue that he loves to speak so freely about) and as such the penalty will fit the crime. I'm sure there will be people who think it wasnt enough regardless of what they give him outside of a beheading.

The "sport" cant necessarily just get rid of guys like the ones you named. It simply isnt that easy to do. Everybody wants to point fingers at this industry in regards to "throwing people out" yet they forget that baseball never "threw out" Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Steve Howe, or Doc Gooden. Basketball didn't "throw out" Latrell Spreewell or Ron Artest. They all come back. There are these dudes called lawyers and these things called rights and it simply isnt easy to get rid of people because the courts seemingly always give in.

We all know that the media is shameless and will take advantage of any negative story it can. But that doesnt make them much different than Congress who will surely slip this little mishap into the next hearing.

well, yeah, we'd all rather have easy goings every day, and never a dark cloud. but the nfl with roger goodell seems to have gotten pretty serious about things-he's been very straightforward about what he won't tolerate, and has been very rigid with the rules. and i think that's what we need here. but it takes time to get to that point, and racing isn't there yet.

and yeah, seems too often bad apples keep showing up-but look at pacman jones for example-he has been trying how long now to get back on the field? does football really need him? probably not. but in a way, it's like nascar-some people watch to see the wreck, not the racing.

when i read not long ago that steve asmussen would one day be in the HOF, i was sickened and disgusted by that. if they can't put him out, that's one thing-but for him to be rewarded for his shady career...that's just crazy.
i guess more than anything, i don't understand the mind set of owners who turn a blind eye-like jess jackson who is SO interested in things being open and honest( ), yet he chooses SA to train curlin. hypocrisy in action. these aren't horse racing fans who want to own, they're people who just want to win, regardless of how they get to the winners circle.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

well, yeah, we'd all rather have easy goings every day, and never a dark cloud. but the nfl with roger goodell seems to have gotten pretty serious about things-he's been very straightforward about what he won't tolerate, and has been very rigid with the rules. and i think that's what we need here. but it takes time to get to that point, and racing isn't there yet.

and yeah, seems too often bad apples keep showing up-but look at pacman jones for example-he has been trying how long now to get back on the field? does football really need him? probably not. but in a way, it's like nascar-some people watch to see the wreck, not the racing.

when i read not long ago that steve asmussen would one day be in the HOF, i was sickened and disgusted by that. if they can't put him out, that's one thing-but for him to be rewarded for his shady career...that's just crazy.
i guess more than anything, i don't understand the mind set of owners who turn a blind eye-like jess jackson who is SO interested in things being open and honest( ), yet he chooses SA to train curlin. hypocrisy in action. these aren't horse racing fans who want to own, they're people who just want to win, regardless of how they get to the winners circle.

very true

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

very true

it's a shame. racing way back when was when folks wanted to show their horse was the best. now it's who can win the most races, the horse is just the vehicle.

one of these days i'm going to put up a fence and have a retired racehorse in the pasture. maybe i'll have a horse like your hacker craft to feed for the rest of his life.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

it's a shame. racing way back when was when folks wanted to show their horse was the best. now it's who can win the most races, the horse is just the vehicle.

one of these days i'm going to put up a fence and have a retired racehorse in the pasture. maybe i'll have a horse like your hacker craft to feed for the rest of his life.

Honestly i dont think it was ever as pure as it is made out to be. Betting coups were probably a lot more fun in the age of bookmakers.

Hackercraft aint done yet!

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Honestly i dont think it was ever as pure as it is made out to be. Betting coups were probably a lot more fun in the age of bookmakers.

Hackercraft aint done yet!

lol

i didn't mean tomorrow!

and yeah, they should have a graduated scale. but multiple offenses shouldn't still just get a week or two off-and then the horses stay in the barn while the trainers' off on 'vacation'.
maybe fines based on percentages of money won-there's got to be real punishment, else where is the incentive to do things by the book?

[Cannon Shell]

I do believe that there should be a graduated penalty system so that the second violation is punished more severely than the first and so on. Maybe even a points system similar to a drivers license because there are some guys who seem to be serial offenders of fairly low level violations. But i still maintain that there are much more serious issues in regards to drugs than the stuff we know about and are testing for. The labs that are testing for these drugs have no idea if drug is effective or performance enhancing at all at the levels that they are testing for. The numbers ar usually pretty arbitrary. The real danger is the things that they arent testing for. Hell, if there is no test then you dont even have to worry about any levels.