Corinthian or Bernardini

[Betsy]

I think I stirred a hornet's nest when I said Bernardini would be good for the sport!

Forgive me if this sounds naive, but:

I agree that the ordinary gamblers (those who would bet on jockeys riding around a track on pogo sticks) don't care about new sires, pedigrees, etc.......but what about those folks who actually do love the sport? I think there's something wonderful about being able to follow the offspring of your favorite horses and there must be other fans who feel the same way; they may not post on message boards, but they subscribe to BloodHorse, Thoroughbred Times, etc.. just the same. These people aren't simply bettors - if they were, they wouldn't be reading magazines whose pages are filled with racing recaps and pedigree profiles. What about the fans on the internet who post about Officer doing well or Empire Maker/Mineshaft being the next great sire? What about the queries about which great racemare is going to be bred to which great sire? Why do people then get excited about first-crop sires? It's because new blood is good for the game.......it keeps it healthy and invigorated.

Originally Posted by Betsy

I think I stirred a hornet's nest when I said Bernardini would be good for the sport!

Forgive me if this sounds naive, but:

I agree that the ordinary gamblers (those who would bet on jockeys riding around a track on pogo sticks) don't care about new sires, pedigrees, etc.......but what about those folks who actually do love the sport? I think there's something wonderful about being able to follow the offspring of your favorite horses and there must be other fans who feel the same way; they may not post on message boards, but they subscribe to BloodHorse, Thoroughbred Times, etc.. just the same. These people aren't simply bettors - if they were, they wouldn't be reading magazines whose pages are filled with racing recaps and pedigree profiles. What about the fans on the internet who post about Officer doing well or Empire Maker/Mineshaft being the next great sire? What about the queries about which great racemare is going to be bred to which great sire? Why do people then get excited about first-crop sires? It's because new blood is good for the game.......it keeps it healthy and invigorated.

I understand people's fascination with the family trees. My parents where always telling me how I looked like great Aunt Esther or some other person I had never seen. Its just that in racing, horses are so frequently pulled before we get to see them run against other talented horses for fear they might lose, and thus lose some of their value in breeding. The first thing you read from the breeding farms, sired 5 diff. Grade I winners. I am just making a plead to let them keep running instead of winning a few prestigous races and then retired while they are at max. breeding value... Avoid competition that might make a horse look "mortal". Its so false and sometimes just downright flippant.

Originally Posted by pgardn

I understand people's fascination with the family trees. My parents where always telling me how I looked like great Aunt Esther or some other person I had never seen. Its just that in racing, horses are so frequently pulled before we get to see them run against other talented horses for fear they might lose, and thus lose some of their value in breeding. The first thing you read from the breeding farms, sired 5 diff. Grade I winners. I am just making a plead to let them keep running instead of winning a few prestigous races and then retired while they are at max. breeding value... Avoid competition that might make a horse look "mortal". Its so false and sometimes just downright flippant.

OOOHHHHHH!!, I get why you're so bitter about new stallions now.....I should have seen this agenda from a million miles away.....know wonder you hate new stallions..BUT, to say they are not important is flat wrong.....savvy horse players will argue that they are because I know...I play pedigrees all the time...that is why they are ofered in the Form as a stat and that is why you here analysts on TVG, etc...talking about horses and mentioning there family ALL THE TIME when handicapping races......now I see you r angle....you are bitter about horses retiring early and that is why you despise them when they go to stud....I see clearly now

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

OOOHHHHHH!!, I get why you're so bitter about new stallions now.....I should have seen this agenda from a million miles away.....know wonder you hate new stallions..BUT, to say they are not important is flat wrong.....savvy horse players will argue that they are because I know...I play pedigrees all the time...that is why they are ofered in the Form as a stat and that is why you here analysts on TVG, etc...talking about horses and mentioning there family ALL THE TIME when handicapping races......now I see you r angle....you are bitter about horses retiring early and that is why you despise them when they go to stud....I see clearly now

I dont hate new stallions. I hate the practice of taking horses off the track and depriving horse racing fans the pleasure of watching them RUN. And that, overall, is the bottom line; RUNNING. Not some archane dosage detail that is based upon very spurious data that is supposed to predict ability on a specific type of track. Honest to God, I hear and read people declaring that a horse should do really well on this yielding turf because his mother won a Grade I race on the turf in just these identical yeilding conditions. Its like saying I should be able to run in extreme heat because my mom once chased down and caught a pig on the farm while running 100 meters in the middle of the summer.
I would rather know how the horse that is actually running the race has done on yielding turf. I dont want to hear about his second cousin.
Now if someone had actually looked at a horse's hoof for instance, and noticed said horse possessed an exceptionally wide hoof and the horse ran well in conditions in which an exceptionally wide hoof is a distinct advantage (Im not sure what this would be) and that one particular offspring from this horse had an exceptionally wide hoof and was indeed fast... then I might take notice when the offspring ran under conditions where an exceptionally wide hoof was an advantage. BUT... I still would rather have SEEN that the offspring had already demonstrated the aforementioned ability ON THE TRACK.

I dont see what is so difficult to understand about the above. And all I am saying is if one really understands genetics and the randomness involved, then one is humbled when faced with the daunting task of trying to predict offspring success on the track without having even watch them run.
I also understand "breed the best, with the best, and hope for the best". I just put a lot of emphasis on the word, HOPE.
Keep em on the track and running.

And Mr. Cunningham I would be more than happy to share with you what I know about genetics so you to could see the incredible random nature of predicting something as difficult as running. Honestly, Breeders appear to me to be trying to please a destructive "give it to me now" market force rather than producing horses that will actually run and not break down. Somebody is gonna eventually break lose from this practice and produce some gems that might stick around. Not precocious pieces of glass.

Coat color, coat coarsness, etc... some well known obvious physical traits are a piece of cake to try and predict compared to running. And some obvious physical traits are very difficult to reproduce. And there are very clear reasons for this. We know enough about genetics to know how difficult it is. This is not Punnett square genetics that people played with in Middle School.

[Gander]

Dont bother Pat. I doubt he'd understand the language you speak in. Just dont ever forget hes a savvy player. That and $1.82 will get you a coffee at Starbucks.

Originally Posted by Gander

Dont bother Pat. I doubt he'd understand the language you speak in. Just dont ever forget hes a savvy player. That and $1.82 will get you a coffee at Starbucks.

Actually I enjoy reading Cunningham posts. He did post about a first timer he had already seen and predicted the horse would run a monster race and the horse came through. A big favorite, but he was still on the mark.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by pgardn

And Mr. Cunningham I would be more than happy to share with you what I know about genetics so you to could see the incredible random nature of predicting something as difficult as running. Honestly, Breeders appear to me to be trying to please a destructive "give it to me now" market force rather than producing horses that will actually run and not break down. Somebody is gonna eventually break lose from this practice and produce some gems that might stick around. Not precocious pieces of glass.

Coat color, coat coarsness, etc... some well known obvious physical traits are a piece of cake to try and predict compared to running. And some obvious physical traits are very difficult to reproduce. And there are very clear reasons for this. We know enough about genetics to know how difficult it is. This is not Punnett square genetics that people played with in Middle School.

I would love to learn about that and I can't wait until someone breeds a horse that doesn't break down...

That's why I like Mr. Livingston so much (by El Prado.) He ran sound until he was 7 AND he's a stallion... can't really beat that.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by pgardn

I understand people's fascination with the family trees. My parents where always telling me how I looked like great Aunt Esther or some other person I had never seen. Its just that in racing, horses are so frequently pulled before we get to see them run against other talented horses for fear they might lose, and thus lose some of their value in breeding. The first thing you read from the breeding farms, sired 5 diff. Grade I winners. I am just making a plead to let them keep running instead of winning a few prestigous races and then retired while they are at max. breeding value... Avoid competition that might make a horse look "mortal". Its so false and sometimes just downright flippant.

And I think that's wrong, Pgarden. That is, I agree with you. It's all about the breeding game now - where is the sportsmanship? I can understand the fear of breakdown with pedigreed animals but then.....if people are that afraid to run their horses, maybe they are in the wrong game. In Bernardini's case, though, if he's healthy, I absolutely expect him to run next year.