Corinthian or Bernardini

Originally Posted by boldruler

Barbaro has been great for racing. The amount of support he has gotten is beyond anything any horse has ever gotten, from racing fans and non-racing fans. He is better for racing than Bernardini could ever be. Bernardini's owners don't even show up for his races.

Well, better in what regards?...ust because they are owned by wealthy Shieks doesn't necessarily mean that he is not a good horse for the people...I know that everybodt saw the movie "Dreamer" and that the Shieks are portrayed as the bad guys of the industry in that movie - BUT, in reality the owner is a smaller story to me...Yes, ownerships matter when there is a good blue-collar story, but I don't think Bernardini will necessarily be punished for his owners if he goes on to be great....the media will find a stoyline, trust me....we can sell all types of horses to the American public to make them love us and we willl sell him if he really excells in the national spotlight...

As for the 'better for racing' comment, yeah, we covet our Derby winners and Barbaro had a non-main stream interest like Funny Cide and Smarty Jones did, but that fades with time, too....Look at Funny Cide..he is very average now and his impact has dwindled although he still won a graded event a couple fo weeks go.....the American public grasps the star of the moment and will cling to him if he proves to be worthy...Funny Cide was certainly no Superstar IMO, but the American public didn't understand that and who cares?..the sport got good pub off of the NY gelding and his story...

I think that Bernardini will prove to be 'better for racing' because he is a horse that COULD easily change the breed....he is a beautiful speciment and a beautiful mover and is by one of the most important sires from one of the nicer blue-blood broodmares in our sport.....it is excellence at that level that WILL make him a strong influence on the breed once he retires and goes to the breeding shed....

Additionally, Barbaro's injury has also NOT been the best thing for our game IMO...I know negative publicity is better than no publicity, but when it comes to hurting animals...now there is a very, very sensative subject to the American public and I guarantee it has completely turned off a large number of casual race fans, and away from our game.....

Now, some goods things will and have come from that incident, but it is hard for someone to state that Barabaro will prove to be a greater contributor to this game than Bernardini...that is just my point..

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

I think that Bernardini will prove to be 'better for racing' because he is a horse that COULD easily change the breed....he is a beautiful speciment and a beautiful mover and is by one of the most important sires from one of the nicer blue-blood broodmares in our sport.....it is excellence at that level that WILL make him a strong influence on the breed once he retires and goes to the breeding shed....

God I think I will throw up. Really, this statement is absolutely nauseating.

Horses like Smarty Jones and Funny Cide are loved because they are not deemed blue bloods.

Originally Posted by pgardn

God I think I will throw up. Really, this statement is absolutely nauseating.

Horses like Smarty Jones and Funny Cide are loved because they are not deemed blue bloods.

I consider breeding higher quality horses to add a greater dynamic to racing(which is what Bernardini has a real chance to do...remember, he will get all of Goldolphins best mares that are from the Northern Dancer sireline) is 'better for racing' (as he quoted in making his point) than the attention and notice the sport got for Barbaro....would you really argue that? A casual racing fan probably won't remember who won the '06 Derby in ten years...just a fact....it would take a hint such as "the horse that broke his leg" - and THAT is what they will associate Barabaro with...that is just the cold, hard facts man...

Additionally, horse players who wager on the sport make the game go round, not casual horse fans that only care to watch the Derby and MAYBE the Breeders' Cup....As a very involved horse player who is consistantly supporting this game, I want to see dynamic race horses that go on top make a significant imapct on the breed....I want to bet the future stars out of the regally-bred and talented Bernardini...that is what the lifeblood of out industry - the gambler - wants...

I'm not saying that Barbaro DOES NOT have the impact that Bernardini does or will, but my point is that it is too early to say one way or the other and that you could make a very strong point for Bernardini here......that is my point and its only an opinion....

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

I consider breeding higher quality horses to add a greater dynamic to racing(which is what Bernardini has a real chance to do...remember, he will get all of Goldolphins best mares that are from the Northern Dancer sireline) is 'better for racing' (as he quoted in making his point) than the attention and notice the sport got for Barbaro....would you really argue that?

I agree with a lot of what you've written in this thread, but the correlation of great horse to great offspring is too weak to get excited about Bernardini's future as a sire. Nor do I agree that there is much need for another top sire, unless that sire is going to pass on durability. With 4 races under his belt, it's too soon to speculate whether Bernardini is durable.

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

A casual racing fan probably won't remember who won the '06 Derby in ten years...just a fact....it would take a hint such as "the horse that broke his leg" - and THAT is what they will associate Barabaro with...that is just the cold, hard facts man...

A casual racing fan will not be able to mention a single top sire. Nor will the fan care if the breed is perceived to be "getting faster". Besides, the most noteworthy change in the breed in the last 25 years is the apparent increase in fragility.

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

Additionally, horse players who wager on the sport make the game go round, not casual horse fans that only care to watch the Derby and MAYBE the Breeders' Cup....As a very involved horse player who is consistantly supporting this game, I want to see dynamic race horses that go on top make a significant imapct on the breed....I want to bet the future stars out of the regally-bred and talented Bernardini...that is what the lifeblood of out industry - the gambler - wants...

I don't think you know what the gambler wants. As a serious gambler, I want to bet horses that run frequently. If they run twice then take 6 months off, I will be up against inside information that will out-weigh my own handicapping skills. I could not care less whether I am betting on an off-spring of Bernardini or one of Grindstone. What I want is a horse who runs often enough for me to apply whatever capping insights I think give me an advantage over the public.

For that matter, I don't think I can speak for what the casual gambler wants either. I am only willing to bet when I have good reason to think I have an edge. I don't believe the casual gambler thinks in those terms. But I'm pretty certain that the typical horseplayer would not say that the breed needs another good sire.

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

I'm not saying that Barbaro DOES NOT have the impact that Bernardini does or will, but my point is that it is too early to say one way or the other and that you could make a very strong point for Bernardini here......that is my point and its only an opinion....

And I'm not saying which horse will have the bigger impact on racing either. I'm just finding fault with the reasoning you are using to justify Bernardini's importance.

I completely agree with you re Bernardini vs Corinthian, and also your comments re Discreet Cat.

--Dunbar

< too weak to get excited about Bernardini's future as a sire. >

WE'LL HAVE TO WAIT AND SEE...I'VE BEEN STUDYING PEDIGREES LONG ENOUGH TO MAKE THE EDUCATED GUESS THAT HE HAS A CHANCE TO SERIOUSLY IMPACT THE BREED AND GET TOP CLASS PERFORMERS....HIS PEDIGREE AND BRILLIANCE ALONG WITH THE FACT THAT HE'LL GET ALL OF DUBAI'S BEST MARES FROM THE NORTHERN DANCER SIRELINE (because why would they support Lane's End with A.P. Indy when they can get to that blood with their own brilliant stud?)....IT IS VERY EASY TO SEE HIM BECOMING A SIRE OF SIRES - AND SIRES OF SIRES IMPACT THE GAME AS MUCH AS ANY HORSE CAN...

< Besides, the most noteworthy change in the breed in the last 25 years is the apparent increase in fragility. >

THE DAMAGE IS DONE AND THIS PROBABLY AND SADLY WILL NEVER CHANGE...THE GAME HAS EVOLVED AND BUYERS WANT PRECOCIOUS HORSES WITH LASER QUICK LOOKS AND PEDIGREES TO POTENTIALLY STRETCH...THAT IS WHAT BUYERS ARE CALLING FOR AND THAT IS WHAT SELLERS ARE GOING TO GIVE THEM....IF YOU WANT TO CHANGE THE MARKET THEN YOU MAY WANT TO START BREEDING AND SELLING SOUND ROUTE HORSES, BUT IT WON"T BE VERY PROFITABLE FOR YOU BECAUSE NOBODY WANTS SOMETHING THEY HAVE TO WAIT ON TO DEVELOPE....THAT IS JUST THE UGLY TRUTH ABOUT THE BUYER'S MARKET IN OUR GAME...HORSES ARE BRED TO BE FRAGILE NOW SO THAT THEY ARE IRONICALLY FASHIONABLE TO BUYERS....JUST THE FACTS AND IT WILL PROBABLY NEVER CHANGE...SORRY MAN, YOU NEED TO GET OVER THAT LIKE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO SAVE ON-TRACK ATTENDANCE...THAT IS ANOTHER ASPECT OF THE GAME THAT IS SIMPLY A THING OF THE PAST AND PROBABLY WILL NEVER CHANGE...HATE TO BREAK IT TO YOU LIKE THAT...

< I don't think you know what the gambler wants. As a serious gambler, I want to bet horses that run frequently. >

I THINK I KNOW AS WELL AS ANYBODY WHAT THE SERIOUS GAMBLER WANTS, HOWEVER I WANT TO LIVE UNTIL I'm A HUNDRED TOO, BUT HAVE NO CONTROL OVER THAT...I UNDERSTAND YOUR CONCERN, BUT THE FACT IS THAT IT WILL NEVER CHANGE BECAUSE TRAINERS AND HORSEMEN JUST DON"T CAMPAIGN HORSES LIKE THE OLD DAYS ANYMORE AND THEY WON'T CHANGE BECAUSE HORSES JUST WILL NOT GET BETTER BUILT...COLD, HARD FACT..

< But I'm pretty certain that the typical horseplayer would not say that the breed needs another good sire. >

WHY THE HELL NOT?..EVERYBODY GETS EXCITED ABOUT NEW, GOOD BLOOD IN OUR GAME....LOOK AT THE PEOPLE EXCITED ABOUT OFFICER AND JOHANNESBURG THIS YEAR, AND THE PEOPEL THAT CANNOT WAIT TO SEE VINDICATION'S BABIES SELL IN THE RING THIS YEAR AND RACE NEXT YEAR....THE GAME CAN ALWAYS NEED GOOD, NEW BLOOD....ALWAYS...A.P. INDY WON't BE AROUND FOREVER AND WE NEED HORSES LIKE MINESHAFT AND BERNARDINI TO CARRY THAT LEGACY AND BLOODLINE....JUST LOOK AT SEATTLE SLEW NOW...HE IS DEAD AND NOW HE ONLY HAS A COUPLE SONS THAT HAVE ANY PROMISE OF BEING GOOD SIRES TO CARRY HIS BLOOD ALONG FOR GENERATIONS TO COME AND THEY ARE A.P. INDY AND VINDICATION AND THE REST OF HIS SONS ARE LITTLE PLAYERS.... THERE IS DEFINATELY A REASON TO GET EXCITED ABOUT NEW DYNAMIC STALLIONS...

[blackthroatedwind]

Well, Joel, the actual " gambler ", or the person betting enough money to actually help support this game, is on average pretty unconcerned with the higher level racing, and thus these top horses that run infrequently don't really affect us.

It's much more about the 4th race on a Thursday than it is about the Travers. The Travers may be a lot more interesting to talk about but it is highly unlikely to be as interesting to bet as the Thursday mid day race.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Well, Joel, the actual " gambler ", or the person betting enough money to actually help support this game, is on average pretty unconcerned with the higher level racing, and thus these top horses that run infrequently don't really affect us.

It's much more about the 4th race on a Thursday than it is about the Travers. The Travers may be a lot more interesting to talk about but it is highly unlikely to be as interesting to bet as the Thursday mid day race.

Yeah, but check out the handle on the feature races on every card throughout America and compare it to just the average $10K claimers running in the 4th on a Thurs. afternoon at Thistledowns....the handle is astronomically bigger for the bigger races, which means that thgere is defiantely a coorelation between the dynamic nature of better racing and betting behavior.....just pure statistics....if people wanted to bet bad horses that run against each other every two weeks all of the time then Calder would have the biggest handle in our game because that is what they are good at, however, that is just not the case...

Bettors love to bet on races that 'matter' and they want to bet on good horses....If you play simo on any day from Thursday - Sunday, you can find 10-20 good races to bet on and be well-entertained and occupied without having to bet the 2nd at Fonner Park because it is the only thing to do....customers have shown the pattern that they prefer to bet QUALITY races and not the cheap nags.....Hell, look at the Derby...if Churchill Downs were to not run that one single race then they would lose over $200 million....Quality does matter and good horses breed quality...Obviously, quantity plays into it as well, but there is defiantely a handle pattern that suggests strongly that quality racing is heads and shoulders more profitable than the full field of maiden claimers assembled at Fairmont...

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Well, Joel, the actual " gambler ", or the person betting enough money to actually help support this game, is on average pretty unconcerned with the higher level racing, and thus these top horses that run infrequently don't really affect us.

It's much more about the 4th race on a Thursday than it is about the Travers. The Travers may be a lot more interesting to talk about but it is highly unlikely to be as interesting to bet as the Thursday mid day race.

Perhaps, then, there is no such thing as a particular animal being good for the game.....or we need to differentiate between what's good for the bettors (those who don't care about the horses and just like to gamble) and what's good for the actual racing fans.

I'm sure hardcore gamblers do not give a fig about Bernardini...or Barbaro or any other really top horse, as long as they continue picking winners (at Belmont or Finger Lakes or wherever racing is conducted). However, actual racing fans, who care about the horses and follow the sport (and don't necessarily bet) like to see good horses....that's what I mean by Bernardini being good for the sport (especially after Barbaro's breakdown). I could be dead wrong about him having any effect on fans or the sport in general; in that case, I will just have to hope he wins big simply because he's a favorite of mine.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

< But I'm pretty certain that the typical horseplayer would not say that the breed needs another good sire. >

WHY THE HELL NOT?..EVERYBODY GETS EXCITED ABOUT NEW, GOOD BLOOD IN OUR GAME....LOOK AT THE PEOPLE EXCITED ABOUT OFFICER AND JOHANNESBURG THIS YEAR, AND THE PEOPEL THAT CANNOT WAIT TO SEE VINDICATION'S BABIES SELL IN THE RING THIS YEAR AND RACE NEXT YEAR....THE GAME CAN ALWAYS NEED GOOD, NEW BLOOD....ALWAYS...A.P. INDY WON't BE AROUND FOREVER AND WE NEED HORSES LIKE MINESHAFT AND BERNARDINI TO CARRY THAT LEGACY AND BLOODLINE....JUST LOOK AT SEATTLE SLEW NOW...HE IS DEAD AND NOW HE ONLY HAS A COUPLE SONS THAT HAVE ANY PROMISE OF BEING GOOD SIRES TO CARRY HIS BLOOD ALONG FOR GENERATIONS TO COME AND THEY ARE A.P. INDY AND VINDICATION AND THE REST OF HIS SONS ARE LITTLE PLAYERS.... THERE IS DEFINATELY A REASON TO GET EXCITED ABOUT NEW DYNAMIC STALLIONS...

Please. Do you think 1 person in 1000 could tell you who Johannesburg and Officer were (or are). I don't think 1 person in 100 at the track could tell you.

Do you really think the fact that Johannesburg and Officer have been successful sires has any impact on the appeal of the sport to 99% of the people who bet? I would be extremely surprised to learn that the success of a stallion like Johannesburg or Officer would bring a single extra fan to horseracing or a single extra bettor to the track.

Maybe you are talking about excitement among owners. I am talking about excitement among bettors (both casual and serious) and among casual fans.

--Dunbar

< Please. Do you think 1 person in 1000 could tell you who Johannesburg and Officer were (or are). I don't think 1 person in 100 at the track could tell you. >

WHERE IN THE HELL DO YOU BET???...GOOD GOD, SIR...YES, YOU DON"T NEED TO BE PLAYING THE HORSES IF YOU HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT SIRES AND PEDIGREES...HWO IN THE HELL DO YOU THINK PEOPLE BET FIRST-TIME STRARTERS???....DO YOU PLAY HORSES AT AN ALASKAN OTB???

< I would be extremely surprised to learn that the success of a stallion like Johannesburg or Officer would bring a single extra fan to horseracing or a single extra bettor to the track. >

WHO GIVES ****?...THAT IS NOT MY POINT...THE REGULAR HORSE PLAYERS CARE, AT LEAST ALL THE ONES I KNOW, AND THEY ARE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE THE LIFE BLOOD OF THIS SPORT.....WOW, DO YOU REALLY KEEP UP WITH THIS SPORT ANY, OR ARE YOU A CASUAL FAN? I CAN'T SEE TO WHERE ANYBODY COULD REALLY SAY THAT SIRES AND PEDIGREES DON'T MATTER AND THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE ESSENTIALLY SAYING....SO, THERE ARE NO DIFFERENCE IN WHO THE SIRES ARE????...HUH?

< Maybe you are talking about excitement among owners. I am talking about excitement among bettors (both casual and serious) and among casual fans. >

WOW, THIS IS HORRENDOUS COMMENTARY!!!

Originally Posted by pgardn

God I think I will throw up. Really, this statement is absolutely nauseating.

Horses like Smarty Jones and Funny Cide are loved because they are not deemed blue bloods.

Elusive Quality stands for $100K and Distorted Humor stands for $150K...Yes, they are well-bred horses........they were blue-collar horses because the story that the media ran with was their blue-collar connections....that doesn't always have to be the same ole song....as a matter of fact, we need another angle...the 'blue-collar connections' angle has been played out in recent years, although it is still a nice angle...

Game needs new blood. Fans and horses.

The best possible scenario: A horse with a very distant (not highly inbred lineage), big time losing genetic background wins the TC. And the owners are ma and pa.

Originally Posted by pgardn

Game needs new blood. Fans

If you can figure that one out then you could be the COO for any company within this industry....

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by pgardn

God I think I will throw up. Really, this statement is absolutely nauseating.

Horses like Smarty Jones and Funny Cide are loved because they are not deemed blue bloods.

So what you're saying is that racing fans only latch onto horses that are not viewed as bluebloods? Well, even if that is the case, I don't care. Horses like Bernardini are just as deserving of affection as the those you mentioned above, and if the public doesn't latch onto him, then fine. I don't care; I love the horse and he has a chance to do great things. If fans don't appreciate him (that's IF Bernardini lives up to his promise), well - that's their issue. I don't see any reason why Smarty Jones and Funny Cide are better for the sport than Bernardini; a great horse is a great horse, period.

Originally Posted by Betsy

So what you're saying is that racing fans only latch onto horses that are not viewed as bluebloods? Well, even if that is the case, I don't care. Horses like Bernardini are just as deserving of affection as the those you mentioned above, and if the public doesn't latch onto him, then fine. I don't care; I love the horse and he has a chance to do great things. If fans don't appreciate him (that's IF Bernardini lives up to his promise), well - that's their issue. I don't see any reason why Smarty Jones and Funny Cide are better for the sport than Bernardini; a great horse is a great horse, period.

Because the game has become a big breeding game and it stinks. Horses are taken off the track very early without a chance to build up any following. This is clearly a problem. Breeding for breedings sake. Lets just breed them and prance them around in front of judges like a dog show. You wanna dog show. I dont want a dog show. I watch racing for the athletes. Not for the conformation or trying to back up my beliefs about why a horse that has won is successful based on his heredity. Let them run.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Because the game has become a big breeding game and it stinks. Horses are taken off the track very early without a chance to build up any following. This is clearly a problem. Breeding for breedings sake. Lets just breed them and prance them around in front of judges like a dog show. You wanna dog show. I dont want a dog show. I watch racing for the athletes. Not for the conformation or trying to back up my beliefs about why a horse that has won is successful based on his heredity. Let them run.

Well,
I can not argue that the racing game has now become the breeding game and that superbly-bred top racehorses run simply so they can command top dollar stud fees. However, Smarty Jones was retired early and he does not have what you'd call a great pedigree, although it's a nice one. So, it's not only the AP Indys and Storm Cats being retired.

If people want to root against Bernardini because of his pedigree and connections, that's their business and they have that right. My favorites are my favorites even if racing fans dislike them; I don't like the reverse snobbism, but it is what it is

[JJP]

Originally Posted by Betsy

So what you're saying is that racing fans only latch onto horses that are not viewed as bluebloods? Well, even if that is the case, I don't care. Horses like Bernardini are just as deserving of affection as the those you mentioned above, and if the public doesn't latch onto him, then fine. I don't care; I love the horse and he has a chance to do great things. If fans don't appreciate him (that's IF Bernardini lives up to his promise), well - that's their issue. I don't see any reason why Smarty Jones and Funny Cide are better for the sport than Bernardini; a great horse is a great horse, period.

Did you see Sea Biscuit? Were you rooting for War Admiral? I must admit I bet and rooted for Empire Maker over Funny Cide in the 2003 Belmont but its easy to see why the public pulls for the less regally bred horse. The general public are not rich stuffy aristocrats and they love to see an average Joe take down the "expected champion".

Originally Posted by JJP

Did you see Sea Biscuit? Were you rooting for War Admiral? I must admit I bet and rooted for Empire Maker over Funny Cide in the 2003 Belmont but its easy to see why the public pulls for the less regally bred horse. The general public are not rich stuffy aristocrats and they love to see an average Joe take down the "expected champion".

The public doesnt care about the breeding. It is the conenctions the people are cheering for. If Smarty Jones was owned by the Sheiks and Lion Tamer was owned by the Chapman's than the public would have been for Lion Tamer. Most people who watch the Derby have no clue who Storm Cat, Native Dancer, AP Indy etc etc are. Breeding has ZERO effect on who the public likes and doesnt.

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Breeding has ZERO effect on who the public likes and doesnt.

Yes it does. Horses are taken off the track too early to breed.

And the notion that racing fans are just gambling addicts and gambling addicts input all the money from the fan interest end is not true.

New owners and new fans. How to attract them.
Again I sense a very skeptical view that racing cannot change. Racing used to be huge in comparison with other sports. NASCAR has captured a huge fan base. The sport is stuck in the muck without some new ideas. The fractured nature of the sport with all its different entities all worried about their own territory... the willingness of bloodstock agents to work with trainers and breeders to rip off owners... the list goes on.