9/27 (SA): AwsmAgn, FrntRnnr, Chndelier, Zenyatta, Rodeo Dr. (G1's)

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by helicopter11

So you get days for race riding? If this was a claiming race on a Thursday I bet this would never been brought up.

Im with you. Plus if you watch the replay the 2 breaks with the 1. Both Baffert horses he choose not to go duel with a stablemate. Its not like Victor went to the whip to keep up and then float the 4 wide. So instead of going after his stablemate he floats the 1-5 chalk wide. I don't get the problem here at all. I think the people complaining are the same people who say Bafferts a cheater/juicer every time a Baffert horse beats them.

[Danzig]

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...ome-again-ride

Bob Baffert trains both Sky Kingdom and Fed Biz, but told the Santa Anita publicity office he had nothing to do with the tactics employed by Espinoza.

"These guys are fierce competitors," Baffert said, alluding to Espinoza, Smith, and others in the jockey colony. "I see it happen to my horses when you have a good one. I didn't tell Victor to do that. He stayed away from my other horse, Fed Biz…Game On Dude, that's why I retired him, because he was starting to get mugged, every race. I didn't cry about it. I just retired him."



no, bob, you cried about it after the race, and then again when you announced his retirement.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Danzig

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...ome-again-ride

Bob Baffert trains both Sky Kingdom and Fed Biz, but told the Santa Anita publicity office he had nothing to do with the tactics employed by Espinoza.

"These guys are fierce competitors," Baffert said, alluding to Espinoza, Smith, and others in the jockey colony. "I see it happen to my horses when you have a good one. I didn't tell Victor to do that. He stayed away from my other horse, Fed Biz…Game On Dude, that's why I retired him, because he was starting to get mugged, every race. I didn't cry about it. I just retired him."



no, bob, you cried about it after the race, and then again when you announced his retirement.

And then again after the Goodwood as well.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Danzig

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...ome-again-ride

Bob Baffert trains both Sky Kingdom and Fed Biz, but told the Santa Anita publicity office he had nothing to do with the tactics employed by Espinoza.

"These guys are fierce competitors," Baffert said, alluding to Espinoza, Smith, and others in the jockey colony. "I see it happen to my horses when you have a good one. I didn't tell Victor to do that. He stayed away from my other horse, Fed Biz…Game On Dude, that's why I retired him, because he was starting to get mugged, every race. I didn't cry about it. I just retired him."



no, bob, you cried about it after the race, and then again when you announced his retirement.

Utter horseshit. As someone mentioned on the selections thread. You don't totally take yourself out of the race by "Race Riding". Sky Kingdom basically was eased after he was no longer able to keep up to Shared Belief.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by jms62

Utter horseshit. As someone mentioned on the selections thread. You don't totally take yourself out of the race by "Race Riding". Sky Kingdom basically was eased after he was no longer able to keep up to Shared Belief.

Exactly.

That Baffert isn't livid with Espinoza is the only truth coming from him.

[RockHardTen1985]

And here is a tweet from a well respected horse racing guy....

Of course the outrage is not that Shared Belief was floated out, but that he was floated out by a Baffert longshot. That's horse racing.

[pointman]

Well that settles the issue.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by pointman

Well that settles the issue.

Not at all, but you guys act like I'm the only one defending that side of it.

[Jay Frederick]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

And here is a tweet from a well respected horse racing guy....

Of course the outrage is not that Shared Belief was floated out, but that he was floated out by a Baffert longshot. That's horse racing.

Does this mean it's the correct opinion?

I've got tons of respect for Doug, but he's wrong here. Has nothing to do with Baffert other than he had to know what was going on. If he didn't then he should never ride Espinoza again.

The issue is bettors who played Sky Kingdom did so under the pretense he would be ridden to actually win the race. His rider had other ideas.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Jay Frederick

Does this mean it's the correct opinion?

I've got tons of respect for Doug, but he's wrong here. Has nothing to do with Baffert other than he had to know what was going on. If he didn't then he should never ride Espinoza again.

The issue is bettors who played Sky Kingdom did so under the pretense he would be ridden to actually win the race. His rider had other ideas.

Anyone who bet Sky Kingdom in this race has issues, I agree with that.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Jay Frederick

Does this mean it's the correct opinion?

I've got tons of respect for Doug, but he's wrong here. Has nothing to do with Baffert other than he had to know what was going on. If he didn't then he should never ride Espinoza again.

The issue is bettors who played Sky Kingdom did so under the pretense he would be ridden to actually win the race. His rider had other ideas.

The horse who won the race was outside the horse that you are claiming wasnt ridden to win the race.

So.....how does one say without using the odds that the horse in the 4 path wasnt ridden to win while the one in the 5 path who actually did win was? Sure you can assume that Smith didnt want to be out there and Espinoza did but now we are assuming as opposed to actually judging if any rules were violated.

If the odds are a determining factor are we now holding rider on long shots to different standards than those riding favorites? Do we want Stewards decisions based on assumptions? Everybody knows everything about high profile stakes horses like SB and CC. Do the stewards or everyday player know if some horse in an allowance race doesnt like to be stuck inside and that is why the other jocks may try to pin him down? Do we want the top races judged differently than the everyday races?

[pointman]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Im with you. Plus if you watch the replay the 2 breaks with the 1. Both Baffert horses he choose not to go duel with a stablemate. Its not like Victor went to the whip to keep up and then float the 4 wide. So instead of going after his stablemate he floats the 1-5 chalk wide. I don't get the problem here at all. I think the people complaining are the same people who say Bafferts a cheater/juicer every time a Baffert horse beats them.

No matter how hard I try to ignore you, you insist on trying to take cheap shots at me while mischaracterizing what have I previously stated regarding Baffert in response to your never ending moronic comments on this board.

I am not sure if you are trolling or you are just plain stupid, though I believe it is some of both but mostly the latter, however, though you already know my position I will once again state it to avoid others from believing your nonsensical allegations towards me.

You have made many accusations towards Pletcher. I have stated over and again that I see no difference between Pletcher and Baffert. There is no more evidence that Baffert cheats than Pletcher cheats. However, both have very good stock that tend to run astonishingly well which leaves whether they are doing something open to interpretation, but to accuse one but not the other is hypocrisy.

With regard to this incident, Baffert has clearly lied when he said that he didn't complain about the tactics used on Game On Dude. He cried like a baby about it on Byk's show. As he is lying about that, it certainly seems credible that he was in on what Espinoza did to Shared Belief, particularly how it helped Baffert's other horse Fed Biz in the race. The motive is clearly there. And as IC has pointed out, it certainly doesn't seem he is so angry with Espinoza.

The funny thing about it is that you can't recognize the difference between fair tactical race riding and the illegal riding that Espinoza did on Saturday. The tactics used against Game On Dude that Baffert cried about were completely fair tactics, nothing more than connections using the best weapon of their horses, their speed, which they felt gave their horses the best chance to win which sometimes does not work out but often does even when there are several other speed horses in a race.

What Espinoza did cannot be considered race riding at all. Race riding is when you are trying to keep a horse from getting somewhere to give your mount a tactical advantage over another horse. Espinoza was not riding his horse to gain a tactical advantage to win the race, he was clearly riding his horse to prevent Shared Belief from winning the race at the expense of giving his horse any opportunity to win, while what clearly seems to give another horse by the same trainer, Fed Biz, a tactical advantage to win the race. That is a fraud on the betting public who bet Sky Kingdom and he was justifiably suspended for it. But that doesn't mean that Baffert should get away with it because he is insulated by the rider did it defense.

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by pointman

What Espinoza did cannot be considered race riding at all. Race riding is when you are trying to keep a horse from getting somewhere to give your mount a tactical advantage over another horse. Espinoza was not riding his horse to gain a tactical advantage to win the race, he was clearly riding his horse to prevent Shared Belief from winning the race at the expense of giving his horse any opportunity to win, while what clearly seems to give another horse by the same trainer, Fed Biz, a tactical advantage to win the race. That is a fraud on the betting public who bet Sky Kingdom and he was justifiably suspended for it.

Totally agree.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by pointman

What Espinoza did cannot be considered race riding at all. Race riding is when you are trying to keep a horse from getting somewhere to give your mount a tactical advantage over another horse. Espinoza was not riding his horse to gain a tactical advantage to win the race, he was clearly riding his horse to prevent Shared Belief from winning the race at the expense of giving his horse any opportunity to win, while what clearly seems to give another horse by the same trainer, Fed Biz, a tactical advantage to win the race.

Is that description akin to running a rabbit in a race for whatever reason one is employed? (Soften up a pace type/add speed for a closing stablemate?)

[pointman]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Is that description akin to running a rabbit in a race for whatever reason one is employed? (Soften up a pace type/add speed for a closing stablemate?)

I was just talking about this on another thread. The difference to me is that employing speed with a rabbit is a legal race tactic that can be discerned by the betting public on paper whereas Espinoza clearly had no intent not only to ride his horse to attempt to win the race, but had clear intent to illegally physically impede another horse from winning the race. That is something that can't be discerned on paper and isn't fair.

Using a rabbit is not inherently dangerous, physically impeding a horse in the manner that Espinoza did is dangerous to both the horses and riders. Plus, using rabbits doesn't always work, rabbits can break poorly, may not be fast enough to set up the closer or the specific horse or horses may relax and just let the rabbit go knowing it is likely to come back (which may not happen) and let the real race go on behind without the great set up for the closer. While it won't always work, it is not likely to be dangerous when it does.

It is tactics vs. deliberate impeding as far as I see it and to me what Espinoza attempted to do was clearly deliberately physically impede Shared Belief from winning, as opposed to using a race tactic to legally beat the horse.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Is that description akin to running a rabbit in a race for whatever reason one is employed? (Soften up a pace type/add speed for a closing stablemate?)

I dont like rabbits but have never bet in a race where I was not able to figure out that two speed horses were in the race and it might hinder their chances.

[Jay Frederick]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Is that description akin to running a rabbit in a race for whatever reason one is employed? (Soften up a pace type/add speed for a closing stablemate?)

Not even close.

Maybe if the horses were coupled, or at least shared the same owner if coupling wasn't allowed it would make sense. That wasn't the case here.

This was Espinoza not wanting Shared Belief to win and bettors be damned. In a sport with integrity issues galore, this did little to help the cause.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by pointman

No matter how hard I try to ignore you, you insist on trying to take cheap shots at me while mischaracterizing what have I previously stated regarding Baffert in response to your never ending moronic comments on this board.

I am not sure if you are trolling or you are just plain stupid, though I believe it is some of both but mostly the latter, however, though you already know my position I will once again state it to avoid others from believing your nonsensical allegations towards me.

You have made many accusations towards Pletcher. I have stated over and again that I see no difference between Pletcher and Baffert. There is no more evidence that Baffert cheats than Pletcher cheats. However, both have very good stock that tend to run astonishingly well which leaves whether they are doing something open to interpretation, but to accuse one but not the other is hypocrisy.

With regard to this incident, Baffert has clearly lied when he said that he didn't complain about the tactics used on Game On Dude. He cried like a baby about it on Byk's show. As he is lying about that, it certainly seems credible that he was in on what Espinoza did to Shared Belief, particularly how it helped Baffert's other horse Fed Biz in the race. The motive is clearly there. And as IC has pointed out, it certainly doesn't seem he is so angry with Espinoza.

The funny thing about it is that you can't recognize the difference between fair tactical race riding and the illegal riding that Espinoza did on Saturday. The tactics used against Game On Dude that Baffert cried about were completely fair tactics, nothing more than connections using the best weapon of their horses, their speed, which they felt gave their horses the best chance to win which sometimes does not work out but often does even when there are several other speed horses in a race.

What Espinoza did cannot be considered race riding at all. Race riding is when you are trying to keep a horse from getting somewhere to give your mount a tactical advantage over another horse. Espinoza was not riding his horse to gain a tactical advantage to win the race, he was clearly riding his horse to prevent Shared Belief from winning the race at the expense of giving his horse any opportunity to win, while what clearly seems to give another horse by the same trainer, Fed Biz, a tactical advantage to win the race. That is a fraud on the betting public who bet Sky Kingdom and he was justifiably suspended for it. But that doesn't mean that Baffert should get away with it because he is insulated by the rider did it defense.

I dont think about you at all when I post here, I know that might be hard to understand. I thought it was race riding, again was the 2 supposed to hook the 1 early? How often do two horses from the same barn kill each other in a Grade 1 race? I was not taking a shot at you specifically with the drug comments, you are not the only one here who has said that.

[pointman]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

I dont think about you at all when I post here, I know that might be hard to understand. I thought it was race riding, again was the 2 supposed to hook the 1 early? How often do two horses from the same barn kill each other in a Grade 1 race? I was not taking a shot at you specifically with the drug comments, you are not the only one here who has said that.

I find it very hard to believe that you would take the same position if Shared Belief were trained by Baffert and Fed Biz and Sky Kingdom were trained by Pletcher.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by pointman

I find it very hard to believe that you would take the same position if Shared Belief were trained by Baffert and Fed Biz and Sky Kingdom were trained by Pletcher.

Ok that's fair, because the GOAT is my guy. Its fair, but not true. I love Smith, I have defended Smith here before. It was race riding and Mike never really tried to save ground. Mike is famous for the wide no cover trip. Victor being suspended 7 days for his ride is ridiculous. There was no contact made, he floated his horse wide, Smith could have taken a hold and tucked in.