Penn National arrests

[Payson Dave]

Originally Posted by Duvalier

Do you ever read where Steve mentions the private clocker reports? There's a reason people pay a premium for those reports...they're far more accurate and legit.

More detailed definitely yes...more legit, I disagree...more accurate, definitely not in so far as comparing final times.
If you have ever been to the morning works, then you would agree that right after the harrow breaks it can get extremely busy. Without a prior heads-up as to who is working and from what pole they will be breaking from it is impossible to get all the works properly timed...the program/pp's have accurate final times...usually more accurate than the private reports due to positioning of the official clockers. Private clockers (more often than the official clockers) also can miss early portions of a work..ie they get a half mile as opposed to 5f...
I'm not saying nor am I naïve enough to believe that all official workout info is completely accurate..but just like official race times the vast majority of the times the info is in fact accurate.
Once again without splits, outs, observation of horse/rider, ect ect...the final time of a workout provides limited value

[Duvalier]

Originally Posted by Payson Dave

More detailed definitely yes...more legit, I disagree...more accurate, definitely not in so far as comparing final times.
If you have ever been to the morning works, then you would agree that right after the harrow breaks it can get extremely busy. Without a prior heads-up as to who is working and from what pole they will be breaking from it is impossible to get all the works properly timed...the program/pp's have accurate final times...usually more accurate than the private reports due to positioning of the official clockers. Private clockers (more often than the official clockers) also can miss early portions of a work..ie they get a half mile as opposed to 5f...

Point taken. I still disagree with the bolded part above...I'm sure most are but there are plenty that are fabricated. What do you say in regard to the late workouts not published in the program that are announced at the racetrack prior to a race being run...ie. horses who haven't had a published work in say the last 30-60 days prior to running in a race that day? How accurate do you think they are?

[Payson Dave]

Originally Posted by Duvalier

Point taken. I still disagree with the bolded part above...I'm sure most are but there are plenty that are fabricated. What do you say in regard to the late workouts not published in the program that are announced at the racetrack prior to a race being run...ie. horses who haven't had a published work in say the last 30-60 days prior to running in a race that day?

Any horse that has not raced in the last 30 days and only shows one work is probably not one that I want to bet on.

[Duvalier]

Originally Posted by Payson Dave

Any horse that has not raced in the last 30 days and only shows one work is probably not one that I want to bet on.

That's not my point though. How accurate do you think those works are when they show up in the PP's the next time the horse runs? The work which was just announced over the loudspeaker prior to the horse running, in order for him to be eligible that day. The workouts in the program are not near always accurate.

[Payson Dave]

Originally Posted by Duvalier

That's not my point though. How accurate do you think those works are when they show up in the PP's the next time the horse runs? The work which was just announced over the loudspeaker prior to the horse running, in order for him to be eligible that day. The workouts in the program are not near always accurate.

I wont question your assertion regarding announced late works...I also do not say program works are "always" accurate...I will maintain my assertion that the vast vast majority of program workout final times (while of limited value) are in fact accurate.

lol...btw was just listening to the churchill preview...they announced that a runner that last raced as an announced gelding is running today as a colt not a gelding...wonder if he got his back or someone else's...lol

[PatCummings]

The ultimate value of the information should not be in question. Value is always in the eye of the interpreter. But there is an official keeper of the data

I'm no lawyer, but I highly recommend everyone read the indictments, specifically of the clocker, if you haven't already. The federal involvement is made pretty clear. Here is my understanding...

1. The ability to bet on races from out of state is an exercise in interstate commerce, a power overseen by the federal government. This came through in the Interstate Horseracing Act of 1978

2. The distribution of the signal across state lines is, essentially, a wire.

3. The feds allege, in the indictments, that attempting to or actually being caught injecting a horse with a substance that is prohibited, or at a time that is prohibited, is an act or an attempt to manipulate the outcome of the race.

4. As the race is distributed over "wire" across state lines, attempting to manipulate the outcome (or provide purposely incorrect information which is offered in the official record of the race and details of each horse, used by the bettors to draw their own conclusions), is deemed fraudulent - again, by the allegations put forth in the indictment.

Does it seem that hundreds of trainers or some number of clockers could be identified as in violation of the law, as it is attempting to be applied now? Yes.

Does it seem this is an attempt to set a new precedent, and thereby presumably clean-up the sport? Yes, absolutely...at least in someone's mind.

Paulick has the link to the indictments in his story:
http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ra...penn-national/

[Duvalier]

Originally Posted by PatCummings

The ultimate value of the information should not be in question. Value is always in the eye of the interpreter. But there is an official keeper of the data

I'm no lawyer, but I highly recommend everyone read the indictments, specifically of the clocker, if you haven't already. The federal involvement is made pretty clear. Here is my understanding...

1. The ability to bet on races from out of state is an exercise in interstate commerce, a power overseen by the federal government. This came through in the Interstate Horseracing Act of 1978

2. The distribution of the signal across state lines is, essentially, a wire.

3. The feds allege, in the indictments, that attempting to or actually being caught injecting a horse with a substance that is prohibited, or at a time that is prohibited, is an act or an attempt to manipulate the outcome of the race.

4. As the race is distributed over "wire" across state lines, attempting to manipulate the outcome (or provide purposely incorrect information which is offered in the official record of the race and details of each horse, used by the bettors to draw their own conclusions), is deemed fraudulent - again, by the allegations put forth in the indictment.

Does it seem that hundreds of trainers or some number of clockers could be identified as in violation of the law, as it is attempting to be applied now? Yes.

Does it seem this is an attempt to set a new precedent, and thereby presumably clean-up the sport? Yes, absolutely...at least in someone's mind.

Paulick has the link to the indictments in his story:
http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ra...penn-national/

So then...how about the horse Payson Dave just mentioned? Running as a colt today but last time was run under the listing that he was gelded? Where would that fall in all this?

[Payson Dave]

Originally Posted by PatCummings

The ultimate value of the information should not be in question. Value is always in the eye of the interpreter. But there is an official keeper of the data
...
...
Paulick has the link to the indictments in his story:
http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ra...penn-national/

Agree that value is in the eye of the interpreter...and that everyone has a right to their own opinion...I just don't share the opinion that published final times of workouts are frequently of little value because of malicious inaccuracy...rather imho published final times are of little value because they tell so little about the quality of the work.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by PatCummings

The ultimate value of the information should not be in question. Value is always in the eye of the interpreter. But there is an official keeper of the data

I'm no lawyer, but I highly recommend everyone read the indictments, specifically of the clocker, if you haven't already. The federal involvement is made pretty clear. Here is my understanding...

1. The ability to bet on races from out of state is an exercise in interstate commerce, a power overseen by the federal government. This came through in the Interstate Horseracing Act of 1978

2. The distribution of the signal across state lines is, essentially, a wire.

3. The feds allege, in the indictments, that attempting to or actually being caught injecting a horse with a substance that is prohibited, or at a time that is prohibited, is an act or an attempt to manipulate the outcome of the race.

4. As the race is distributed over "wire" across state lines, attempting to manipulate the outcome (or provide purposely incorrect information which is offered in the official record of the race and details of each horse, used by the bettors to draw their own conclusions), is deemed fraudulent - again, by the allegations put forth in the indictment.

Does it seem that hundreds of trainers or some number of clockers could be identified as in violation of the law, as it is attempting to be applied now? Yes.

Does it seem this is an attempt to set a new precedent, and thereby presumably clean-up the sport? Yes, absolutely...at least in someone's mind.

Paulick has the link to the indictments in his story:
http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ra...penn-national/

What they are claiming is pretty clear. My question is do these acts constitute felonies? Obviously they believe they can make these cases but I have doubts especially in the case of Rogers that the timing and person delivering a legal medication constitutes criminal manipulation other than in the broadest of definitions. Does the supposed personal monetary gain matter because the trainer of record (of which Rogers isnt) doesnt make a whole lot of money winning a race at Penn National.
In other words no one "manipulates" a race for the hell of it but the monetary gain here involving simply the trainers % of the purse is a pretty paltry sum for a case in Federal Court. I don't recall what class level her race was but the largest purse at Penn is generally 35k which would make the trainers % worth about 2000 which is less than the limit of small claims court. I understand that there are people who are betting on the race but as in every race in the parimutual system, the same amount was paid out to betters regardless of who wins.

I am not defending the accused here because they did in fact break the rules. My question is are these really felonies, should taxpayer money be spent trying cases in which the publics interest is only marginally affected (only the losing bettors could claim harm) and how broad are these interpretation going to be?

We have legal wagering on sporting events in 4 states I believe. Are pro sports next? Isn't a player who takes a PED doing the same thing?