Frankel

[King Glorious]

Especially on this forum. Even though I'm often wrong, as is everyone else, when I am right, people on here are afraid to say so for fear it would get them in trouble with the mean girls.

[Indian Charlie]

Ah, now you've martyred yourself.

Awesome.

[RolloTomasi]

Isn't Frankel the horse that nearly got rundown by Zoffany a few weeks ago?

He did pound the hell out of Canford Cliffs, though. A horse that is slightly better than Rip Van Winkle. They probably should have tossed in a pacemaker for him.

All the "great" milers, from Brigadier Gerard to Miesque to Goldikova ventured out for an extra furlong or two during their campaigns. When's he going to do something like that? Likely never, as nowadays they have those "new" Group 1s like the Queen Anne and Lockinge Stakes to shoot for. Next year I predict: the Euro version of Zenyatta.

Frankel clearly has chinks in his armor. Sea The Stars would have leveled him at any distance (as he did RVW and current staying sensation Fame And Glory). Of course, he'd have only gotten the chance to do it at 8f.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Isn't Frankel the horse that nearly got rundown by Zoffany a few weeks ago?

He did pound the hell out of Canford Cliffs, though. A horse that is slightly better than Rip Van Winkle. They probably should have tossed in a pacemaker for him.

All the "great" milers, from Brigadier Gerard to Miesque to Goldikova ventured out for an extra furlong or two during their campaigns. When's he going to do something like that? Likely never, as nowadays they have those "new" Group 1s like the Queen Anne and Lockinge Stakes to shoot for. Next year I predict: the Euro version of Zenyatta.

Frankel clearly has chinks in his armor. Sea The Stars would have leveled him at any distance (as he did RVW and current staying sensation Fame And Glory). Of course, he'd have only gotten the chance to do it at 8f.

I can think of others as well, based on what I've seen, that I think would have beaten Frankel.

Hell, a totally healthy Uncle Mo, if he was equally capable on grass (I know, I know, he's likely done), I think Frankel would have had a big disadvantage going against a horse with Mo's ability and style.

How on Earth could Frankel possibly have handled Dubai Millenium?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

I can think of others as well, based on what I've seen, that I think would have beaten Frankel.

Hell, a totally healthy Uncle Mo, if he was equally capable on grass (I know, I know, he's likely done), I think Frankel would have had a big disadvantage going against a horse with Mo's ability and style.

How on Earth could Frankel possibly have handled Dubai Millenium?

I don't like how Frankel has essentially "snuck" his way into the pantheon of greatness, after spending most of this season ducking major races (Epsom Derby, Eclipse, etc.), failing to display stamina of any sort, and showing the obvious limitations to his unbridled running style, simply by mauling Canford Cliffs in a 4-horse field.

This was a horse that was essentially conceded the Epsom Derby after his Dewhurst win at 2. Funny that his connections didn't even make the attempt.

Yeah, Henry Cecil knows a great horse when he sees one. He also knows a very limited horse when he sees one.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I don't like how Frankel has essentially "snuck" his way into the pantheon of greatness, after spending most of this season ducking major races (Epsom Derby, Eclipse, etc.), failing to display stamina of any sort, and showing the obvious limitations to his unbridled running style, simply by mauling Canford Cliffs in a 4-horse field.

This was a horse that was essentially conceded the Epsom Derby after his Dewhurst win at 2. Funny that his connections didn't even make the attempt.

Yeah, Henry Cecil knows a great horse when he sees one. He also knows a very limited horse when he sees one.

Didn't Cecil state earlier in the year the he had designs of the Arc/10-12f est. later in the campaign?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Didn't Cecil state earlier in the year the he had designs of the Arc/10-12f est. later in the campaign?

I guess that was before he came to the realization that it was going to be very difficult to harness Frankel's speed. I'm just disappointed that he won't even take a shot, even at 10f, instead mapping out an exclusively 8f campaign. It's starting to sound more or more like keeping him unbeaten and maintaining the illusion of invincibility is what matters most to his connections. He's by f'n Galileo for Christ's sake.

Frankel is entered in the Juddmonte International at around 9.5f, so I suppose there's still a chance. But they've moved the 8f Queen Elizabeth II to the same day as the 10f Champion Stakes, so I don't anticipate seeing him stretch out in October.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

I can think of others as well, based on what I've seen, that I think would have beaten Frankel.

Hell, a totally healthy Uncle Mo, if he was equally capable on grass (I know, I know, he's likely done), I think Frankel would have had a big disadvantage going against a horse with Mo's ability and style.

How on Earth could Frankel possibly have handled Dubai Millenium?

Even the most unabashed Uncle Mo fan should be realistic enough to know that Frankel would destroy him.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Even the most unabashed Uncle Mo fan should be realistic enough to know that Frankel would destroy him.

IF, and these are big ifs, granted, but if Mo had no physical issues and took to grass as well as dirt, I'd say there's no freaking way on Earth Frankel destroys him.

In fact, based on what I've seen from Frankel, it's likely if those two faced each other going a mile on turf (again, Mo would have to be the same horse he was), Mo would run Frankel into submission.

Yeah, sure, if Frankel got 2 going 48.3, he would be tough, but if they went head to head in a quick pace duel, Frankel wouldn't finish in the same zip code.

You should go watch Frankel's previous race. That race is very telling, and unlike most people, I think making the jockey the scapegoat for that performance is ridiculous.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

IF, and these are big ifs, granted, but if Mo had no physical issues and took to grass as well as dirt, I'd say there's no freaking way on Earth Frankel destroys him.

In fact, based on what I've seen from Frankel, it's likely if those two faced each other going a mile on turf (again, Mo would have to be the same horse he was), Mo would run Frankel into submission.

Yeah, sure, if Frankel got 2 going 48.3, he would be tough, but if they went head to head in a quick pace duel, Frankel wouldn't finish in the same zip code.

You should go watch Frankel's previous race. That race is very telling, and unlike most people, I think making the jockey the scapegoat for that performance is ridiculous.

You are admittedly someone who doesn't wager on racing anymore and whose opinions are based primarily on progeny of Indian Charlie, Indian Charlie himself and your friend who owns Lubash. Your thinking is so one-dimensional when it comes to any of those topics that it's futile to even dispute it.

I am quite familiar with Frankel's last race. Maintaining an understanding of how races are run is essential. Turf routes, especially over demanding ground like what they routinely traverse in Europe are rarely won by horses who make decisive moves over a half-mile out. Have you watched Frankel's race at Newmarket? How you could watch that and think there's even a chance in hell that "Uncle Mo could run Frankel into submission" is baffling.

I've never called Frankel one of the best...of anything. He is simply a VERY good horse who has passed every test with flying colors. It's obvious that he's developing steadily and has a turn of foot that makes him very tough to beat when he has a tactical advantage. Comparing him to a dirt horse who is currently laid up, was a horrible 3rd in his only graded stakes try of 2011, and is trying to regain 2YO form is silly.

You know what's funny and few are bringing it up. Overdriven's first two starts have been just as good if not better than Uncle Mo's and he has faced MUCH better horses.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Even the most unabashed Uncle Mo fan should be realistic enough to know that Frankel would destroy him.

And by the way, I may be a fan of Uncle Mo, but I'm pretty realistic about his abilities. Do I think he is (or was) far superior to the rest of this crop? Yes. Do I think he's the best 2-3 year old of the last xx years? No.

Frankel as one of the top three milers of the last century? Now that what I call unrealistic. If he were to hook some of the faster milers in recent history (by faster I mean high quality milers with great early speed), he'd be toast.

[Seattleallstar]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

I can think of others as well, based on what I've seen, that I think would have beaten Frankel.

Hell, a totally healthy Uncle Mo, if he was equally capable on grass (I know, I know, he's likely done), I think Frankel would have had a big disadvantage going against a horse with Mo's ability and style.

How on Earth could Frankel possibly have handled Dubai Millenium?

Hell I wonder if Frankel could handle Hawk Wing or Dubai Destination.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Seattleallstar

Hell I wonder if Frankel could handle Hawk Wing or Dubai Destination.

I'll have you know that even the most unabashed Hawk Wing and Dubai Destination fans are realistic enough to know that Frankel would destroy them!

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Especially on this forum. Even though I'm often wrong, as is everyone else, when I am right, people on here are afraid to say so for fear it would get them in trouble with the mean girls.

What is the last thing you were actually right about?

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

What is the last thing you were actually right about?

He did get Zenyatta right as HOY.

Oh wait, he had Goldi for 2010, and Zen in 2008 and 2009.

I guess Curlin in 07?

[Dahoss]

Count me in with the group that doesn't think Overdriven has been as impressive as Uncle Mo was, but Overdriven is pretty good.

I also think very highly of Frankel, but I truly do not understand the need to label horses immediately after a performance. I get it that this is how the world is now, the internet has enabled EVERYONE to have an opinion on EVERYTHING, and people are prone to throw outlandish comments out to try and compenate for something. But best miler ever? Really?

One more jump 2 back and he gets beat, rider error or not. Maybe eventually he'll run his way to some sort of best ever label, but let's see him do it.