Cliff Lee

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Antitrust, you do realize that stats like ERA+ are attempting to quantify exactly what you are saying? And based on the adjusted stats (read: adjusted for park/league factors, etc.), Halladay isn't in Maddux's league, and isn't likely to ever get there. Maddux had six seasons with ERA+ numbers higher than Halladay's 2009 season, and those seasons came in the steroid hey-day of the early 1990's. You question whether or not Halladay would have similar numbers to Maddux during his peak years; I question whether Halladay would have had the same success pitching against a bunch of guys on the cream and the clear for the majority of his career.

Of course, that isn't to say Halladay's not a Hall of Famer - he is - but he's unlikely to have career value on the same par as Maddux when all is said and done.

How do stats adjust for that accurately? Impossible.

[slotdirt]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

How do stats adjust for that accurately? Impossible.

Not that difficult. Take the par for ERA that year, account for park factors, and voila, you have a statistically relevant way to account for what league a particular pitcher was playing in for that season. Sabermetricians do it all the time.

[Antitrust32]

How interesting that even Greg Maddux himself agree's with me about this "on paper" thing. hmm. seem to have a lot of credible opinions backing up mine!

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/p...g_Maddux_.html

[horseofcourse]

You take out of stuff what you want to take out of it. Here's the only quote of Maddux I noticed in that article.


“I think you have to let them pitch together for two or three years and see what happens.

He backs up whatever opinion that was offered on this thread that you want him to back up.

My only input was that at his best Halladay nor Lee will ever be as good as Maddux was at his best in the 90s nor will have anything close to the career Maddux had. That is true. The entire 4 may be as good as the Braves was for a short time. That is possible.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

You take out of stuff what you want to take out of it. Here's the only quote of Maddux I noticed in that article.


“I think you have to let them pitch together for two or three years and see what happens.

He backs up whatever opinion that was offered on this thread that you want him to back up.

My only input was that at his best Halladay nor Lee will ever be as good as Maddux was at his best in the 90s nor will have anything close to the career Maddux had. That is true. The entire 4 may be as good as the Braves was for a short time. That is possible.

It was more for slotdirt than for you. I dont have any issues with your opinion about Maddux compared to Halladay. I think that Halladay is the pitcher that most resembles Maddux since Greg himself. Though looking at those two years (94 and 95? or was it 95 and 96?) Maddux was unfrickingbelievable. I think Halladay matches up quite well with Maddux except those two years. Who knows, maybe Halladay can string together something along those lines. Both pitchers had nasty movement that could always find the strike zone.

I just dont agree at all with slot dirts opinion that our 4 guys dont compare with the Braves 4 guys.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

How interesting that even Greg Maddux himself agree's with me about this "on paper" thing. hmm. seem to have a lot of credible opinions backing up mine!

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/p...g_Maddux_.html

Stick your twat in your zipper.

Morty told me to say that.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Stick your twat in your zipper.

Morty told me to say that.

done and done!

[dalakhani]

[quote=slotdirt;734290]Not that difficult. Take the par for ERA that year, account for park factors, and voila, you have a statistically relevant way to account for what league a particular pitcher was playing in for that season. Sabermetricians do it all the time.[/QUOT

That is flawed especially considering that it doesn't take into account the unbalanced schedules.

Beyond on that, how can any stat possibly measure what its like to be in the dog days with your team hopelessly out of contention and then having to pitch to the red sox, yankees and red sox again in the course of two weeks? Impossible.

The money situation in baseball only became this ridiculous during Halladay's career.

[slotdirt]

Are you saying that, say, Felix Hernandez's stats weren't any good last year because he got to pitch against AL West opponents a bunch of times? If so, then you're basically insinuating that basically every baseball statistic in history is meaningless. Good luck with that argument.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Are you saying that, say, Felix Hernandez's stats weren't any good last year because he got to pitch against AL West opponents a bunch of times? If so, then you're basically insinuating that basically every baseball statistic in history is meaningless. Good luck with that argument.

you are the one who looked at the Halladay stats from this past year.. picked out the ERA+ stat and made it seem like 2010 Halladay NL East year didnt compare with Maddux when it is easy to see that it did (minus those 95-96 Maddux years where he was out of this world).

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Are you saying that, say, Felix Hernandez's stats weren't any good last year because he got to pitch against AL West opponents a bunch of times? If so, then you're basically insinuating that basically every baseball statistic in history is meaningless. Good luck with that argument.

No, not what i said. Are you saying that his stats wouldn't be more impressive if he pitched for toronto last year instead of seattle?

[slotdirt]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

No, not what i said. Are you saying that his stats wouldn't be more impressive if he pitched for toronto last year instead of seattle?

Impossible to know. I'd think it would be possible that facing the same team many more times over the course of a given year would equalize, in the case of a Toronto starting pitcher, the number of times that pitcher has to face a lineup like the Yankees or Rays. Moreover, we're talking about pitchers who only play 35 games maximum over the course of a 162 game season. Unbalanced schedules would seem to be statistically irrelevant when it comes to starting pitchers.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Impossible to know. I'd think it would be possible that facing the same team many more times over the course of a given year would equalize, in the case of a Toronto starting pitcher, the number of times that pitcher has to face a lineup like the Yankees or Rays. Moreover, we're talking about pitchers who only play 35 games maximum over the course of a 162 game season. Unbalanced schedules would seem to be statistically irrelevant when it comes to starting pitchers.

Do you think that maybe you should re-think this last sentence?

[Antitrust32]

McNabb benched this sunday for the one and only Rex Grossman..

oh, sweet vindication.

McNabb is a great guy... but nobody should feel sorry for a man who's made more than 100 million dollars by not winning big games.

[slotdirt]

Redskins fans (if there are any left) are collectively saying "WTF?" right now. I get benching the guy, but for Rex Grossman? Shanahan has seen Rex Grossman play, right? What an awful job he's done this year.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Redskins fans (if there are any left) are collectively saying "WTF?" right now. I get benching the guy, but for Rex Grossman? Shanahan has seen Rex Grossman play, right? What an awful job he's done this year.

Shanahan should have stuck with Jason Campbell (who is no better or worse than Low Throw McBlow).. kept his 2nd and 3rd round picks to get players who will impact the team in the future.. and then went for Luck/Mallet/Locker in April 2011.

Hindsight is always 20/20.. but it was apparent how this would work out as soon as the trade was announced. Big Andy Reid pulled one over on the Skins (though i still think it was a terrible idea to deal him to a division rival no matter what has happened since)

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Shanahan should have stuck with Jason Campbell (who is no better or worse than Low Throw McBlow).. kept his 2nd and 3rd round picks to get players who will impact the team in the future.. and then went for Luck/Mallet/Locker in April 2011.

Hindsight is always 20/20.. but it was apparent how this would work out as soon as the trade was announced. Big Andy Reid pulled one over on the Skins (though i still think it was a terrible idea to deal him to a division rival no matter what has happened since)

Maybe big Andy isnt such a bad coach/gm after all?

What Mcnabb did this year has nothing to do with what he did for 10 years in philly. He is not what he was and im sure you can agree with that.

Reid got out while the getting was good.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

McNabb benched this sunday for the one and only Rex Grossman..

oh, sweet vindication.

McNabb is a great guy... but nobody should feel sorry for a man who's made more than 100 million dollars by not winning big games.

I take that back... now that I read he will be 3rd string behind rex and john beck... i kinda feel bad for the guy.