Track privitization

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Kasept

You are indeed as big a smart ass as there is on here regularly delivering the most negative responses about anything and everything in the game.

Game certainly provides enough ammunition, does it not?

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by Kasept

http://www.drf.com/news/two-voices-r...ersey-horsemen

Ray Bateman's letter doesn't seem available anymore, but he laid out the outrageous series of expenditures Trenton has heeped on AC. Here's an excerpt:

"The state’s tax on casino revenues is one of the lowest in the nation and a little more than half the casino tax in Pennsylvania. Gov. Whitman had a $300 million tunnel and roadway built to the Borgata casino; Gov. Florio ‘ordered’ the Sports Authority to build and operate (always at a loss) a new $275 million convention center in Atlantic City; later the west hall of the old convention center was rebuilt by the same authority for more than $100 million; a special train for gamblers from Philadelphia to Atlantic City was bought and paid for at New Jersey expense and operates annually at a loss, as does the ACES train express from New York; two new bus terminals were built (for the casinos, of course); and the huge state police presence in Atlantic City was not totally paid for by the casinos. The Atlantic City airport was improved with state and federal funds. When casinos comp gamblers in their rooms they do not pay the state hotel room tax – a big number loss each year to the state. No question that the casinos have enjoyed sweetheart relationships with all past governors and legislatures. Sad, but true. And now they want more and are still unwilling to compromise on slots at the Meadowlands, or on help for the horse industry – both essentially North Jersey concerns.”

All true. I live in the area and I remember each one of these. Good job Steve.

This issue will hinge on the North versus South political power struggle. There is no merit in preferring A.C. over the tracks. Ideally we should be able to have both thrive to some extent.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by Kasept

I'm not going to debate how I run my website with you. But what amounts to 'honest' evaluations about the game are open to debate of course. What you want to characterize as honest seems to invariably be a dour, angry or similarly negative interpretation of virtually everything that comes up.

That's the crux of it, isn't it. Rather than listen to a message you disagree with, it's much easier to push it aside as the rantings of some crazed miserable internet poster(in fact I didn't realize how freaking joyous most posters are on here). I'm happy as a pig in **** right now actually. The fact is racing is in the death throws on many levels. And since I live in NJ and am a public employee, and voted for Chrisite against my own personal self-interests, I guess I can see the forest through the trees more than most....A slow motion train wreck is still a train wreck. Horse racing will rebound when the economics of the game don't count on Grandma to pull a lever.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by jms62

Dude.. People used to gather on the steps of the Stock Exchange to buy stocks too. If you live in the NOW then why do you not see that attendence at the track is meaningless due to the technological changes in wagering.

Huh, handle is down about 10% year over year(national). And that's after a year over year decline last year.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Huh, handle is down about 10% year over year(national). And that's after a year over year decline last year.

Did you account for the recession / depression we are now in?

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by jms62

Did you account for the recession / depression we are now in?

YES!!!! Which is why I'm talking about ending subsidies in general, not specific to racing or any area.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Huh, handle is down about 10% year over year(national). And that's after a year over year decline last year.

IT's really simple as I see it. Subsidy is a hot button word that people relate to bailing out the wall street gamblers. Mom and Pop want nothing to do with subsidies. Atlantic City didn't subsidize NJ racing.. It was a business agreement, a contract.. Atlantic City agreed to pay x million dollars if NJ didn't seek slots. NJ racing did what it was required to do to receive payment for services rendered. Now AC is calling that a subsidy in order to unite the masses against Horse Racing.. Christie is calling it a subsidy because his fat ass seems to be in bed with AC. AC no longer wants to enter in such a contract as they have the right to. NJ needs to get on the ballot, slots and sports betting at the racetracks so the industry can be competitive with neighboring states and save the BILLIONS of dollars of revenue that horse racing produces on track and off.

The racinos are a band-aid. When all of the tracks get them it will starve the smaller tracks that have them now.

What they need to do is add the racinos and legalize all drugs and prostitution but just let the tracks sell the drugs and whores.

That way the tracks can make money and still be horrendously incompetent.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

What they need to do is add the racinos and legalize all drugs and prostitution but just let the tracks sell the drugs and whores.

That way the tracks can make money and still be horrendously incompetent.

If horseman can get disount prices, I am all for this.


Note i asked for a discount, not a subsidy

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by HomerS

And as a follow up, since we are talking about the "NOW" should all businesses facing hard times now be shut down?

This is public money. Horse racing can and should be able to survive without public money....We aren't talking about your garbage pick up and police force.

[philcski]

They're watching in Vegas, too:
http://www.gamingtoday.com/industry/...aryland_casino

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

This is public money. Horse racing can and should be able to survive without public money....We aren't talking about your garbage pick up and police force.

Like automakers and banks?

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Like automakers and banks?

I was against that too big guy...but you might have people say "the financial system is more important than horse racing." The auto bailouts made no sense. Nor did the banking ones IMO.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

This is public money. Horse racing can and should be able to survive without public money....We aren't talking about your garbage pick up and police force.

If government was simply OK with receiving income taxes on the thousands of people who work in the industry and taxes on items like admissions and concessions (where applicable), rather than acting as a parasite with parimutuel taxes, OTBs and the like, horse racing would probably be a self-sustaining, healthy industry. The problem isn't that government is getting too little from racing, it's that government is already getting too much. And now, when asked to give up a little of the excess that is is already receiving from the over-taxed industry, the politicians spin it into government "subsidizing" racing. Priceless!!

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

If government was simply OK with receiving income taxes on the thousands of people who work in the industry and taxes on items like admissions and concessions (where applicable), rather than acting as a parasite with parimutuel taxes, OTBs and the like, horse racing would probably be a self-sustaining, healthy industry. The problem isn't that government is getting too little from racing, it's that government is already getting too much. And now, when asked to give up a little of the excess that is is already receiving from the over-taxed industry, the politicians spin it into government "subsidizing" racing. Priceless!!

You are missing the point. Horse racing survives on gambling, not concessions or attendance...If every track needs VLTs than something is wrong with the business model. Of course it can be fixed. But don't expect government to be the one to fix it.

[chucklestheclown]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Like automakers and banks?

Yes. And so what if Randall's honesty is negative.
And, unless you are in England, it is "privAtization," in England, it is "privAtiSation." Thank you for your support.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

You are missing the point. Horse racing survives on gambling, not concessions or attendance...If every track needs VLTs than something is wrong with the business model. Of course it can be fixed. But don't expect government to be the one to fix it.

No, it's you who are missing the point. If government didn't have its hands so deep into racing's pockets, tracks probably wouldn't need VLTs to survive. The "current model" is broken because of the heavy "taxes" that government imposes on racing, unlike other gambling enterprises such as casinos. (That's why the "takeout" at those venues can be so much lower than at race tracks.) The reason NYRA has the highest handle in the country yet purses that are not commensurate with that handle is the huge "skim" going to government. Alex Waldrop spelled this out very well in testimony earlier this year to the NYS Senate Racing Committee.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

No, it's you who are missing the point. If government didn't have its hands so deep into racing's pockets, tracks probably wouldn't need VLTs to survive. The "current model" is broken because of the heavy "taxes" that government imposes on racing, unlike other gambling enterprises such as casinos. (That's why the "takeout" at those venues can be so much lower than at race tracks.) The reason NYRA has the highest handle in the country yet purses that are not commensurate with that handle is the huge "skim" going to government. Alex Waldrop spelled this out very well in testimony earlier this year to the NYS Senate Racing Committee.

That skim is specific to issues within NY state, that is not the same issue in NJ. OTB issues, that have nothing to do with NJ issues which is what this thread started out as. You are trying to paint with a broad brush. The government is part of the problem, to say it is the whole problem in racing is untrue.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

You are missing the point. Horse racing survives on gambling, not concessions or attendance...If every track needs VLTs than something is wrong with the business model. Of course it can be fixed. But don't expect government to be the one to fix it.

Aren't VLT's a form of gambling? Why should tracks be prevented from exploring other avenues of gambling when the current landscape already allows that in competiting states? Isn't the gov't restricting the types of gambling allowed at track in NJ? So if they want to play favorites with private gambling businesses, why shouldn't the racetrack get paid if they arent allowed to expand their menu? The state shouldnt be in the racetrack business because most states cant run any business profitably. But that doesn't mean that the racetracks aren't still hamstrung by the states decisions.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by chucklestheclown

Yes. And so what if Randall's honesty is negative.
And, unless you are in England, it is "privAtization," in England, it is "privAtiSation." Thank you for your support.

Honesty isn't in question here. Randall has totally oversimplified the entire situation and used quotes by politicians in doing so. I dont know which is worse. Or if you are a product of the NY education system, worser.