Jon White on the Best Horses of the last 50 years...

[slotdirt]

I don't know, Zenyatta better than Affirmed? War Admiral? I don't think I can buy that.

[slotdirt]

P.S. - I was also shocked Pioneer of the Nile wasn't on here at least somewhere.

[Indian Charlie]

So, the only horse he'd rank high since the early 80s, besides John Henry, is Zenyatta?

Zenyatta is the best horse since John Henry?

I could easily come up with 50 horses since JH that are better than Z.

Maybe even his beloved POTN.

[ARyan]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

P.S. - I was also shocked Pioneer of the Nile wasn't on here at least somewhere.

I thought he would have had him in top 5.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

I don't know, Zenyatta better than Affirmed?

Oh for sure.
Affirmed had a good record but he got it by running against mules like Spectacular Bid, Alydar, Seattle Slew, Exceller, Sensitive Prince, etc. He couldn't have handled the horses Zenyatta has faced.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Oh for sure.
Affirmed had a good record but he got it by running against mules like Spectacular Bid, Alydar, Seattle Slew, Exceller, Sensitive Prince, etc. He couldn't have handled the horses Zenyatta has faced.

<snicker>

and round table, 19th. lol omg, yeah, he's one of the members of the crop billed the best ever. threw down not one, but two win streaks the likes of which most horses never see. considered the top turfer ever in this country. EVER. zenyatta isn't fit to be mentioned in the same thread as most of those horses above.


and this, this is akin to blasphemy:

While I currently put Ruffian ahead of Zenyatta, it is getting very close to the point that I will decide to move Zenyatta above Ruffian. My thinking is I probably will make that switch if Zenyatta remains undefeated and manages to win a second Breeders’ Cup Classic this year.

ruffian lead at every call of every race she ever ran in. she never gave up the lead until she gave up everything.

[smuthg]

Originally Posted by Danzig

<snicker>

and round table, 19th. lol omg, yeah, he's one of the members of the crop billed the best ever. threw down not one, but two win streaks the likes of which most horses never see. considered the top turfer ever in this country. EVER. zenyatta isn't fit to be mentioned in the same thread as most of those horses above.


and this, this is akin to blasphemy:

While I currently put Ruffian ahead of Zenyatta, it is getting very close to the point that I will decide to move Zenyatta above Ruffian. My thinking is I probably will make that switch if Zenyatta remains undefeated and manages to win a second Breeders’ Cup Classic this year.

ruffian lead at every call of every race she ever ran in. she never gave up the lead until she gave up everything.

Isn't there only one call that really matters in racing, the one that has 17 straight "1"s in it for Zenyatta.

I realize its hard to believe, but when you have people like Jon White and Steve Davidowitz saying that Zenyatta is the best mare or one of the two best mares they've ever seen, shouldn't that make you look at and appreciate Zenyatta rather than continue to degrade her and her performances???

Originally Posted by smuthg

Isn't there only one call that really matters in racing, the one that has 17 straight "1"s in it for Zenyatta.

I realize its hard to believe, but when you have people like Jon White and Steve Davidowitz saying that Zenyatta is the best mare or one of the two best mares they've ever seen, shouldn't that make you look at and appreciate Zenyatta rather than continue to degrade her and her performances???

So should I start changing my opinion on NFL players because John Clayton and Deion Sanders hold a different opinion?

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by smuthg

I realize its hard to believe, but when you have people like Jon White and Steve Davidowitz saying that Zenyatta is the best mare or one of the two best mares they've ever seen, shouldn't that make you look at and appreciate Zenyatta rather than continue to degrade her and her performances???

Screw Jon White (whoever the **** he is) and Davidowitz too. When the day comes that someone with their OWN opinion needs to start paying attention to people that are selling 'information' (Davidowitz is definitely doing this), that's the day they need to give up the game. Let's push the TOUTS out of the game.

[Cannon Shell]

Ranking a horse in any top whatever list prior to their careers being over is idiotic.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by smuthg

Isn't there only one call that really matters in racing, the one that has 17 straight "1"s in it for Zenyatta.

I realize its hard to believe, but when you have people like Jon White and Steve Davidowitz saying that Zenyatta is the best mare or one of the two best mares they've ever seen, shouldn't that make you look at and appreciate Zenyatta rather than continue to degrade her and her performances???

i'm not quite sure how saying she isn't comparable to ruffian is degrading. considering what ruffian did, how she ran, and her records and wins....i don't think i'm wrong in this case. i like zenyatta, as i do any racehorse, i appreciate what she's done. however, i would not go so far as to rank her above one of the best race fillies ever, nor do i think zenyatta belongs in the top 20 in the last fifty years. considering the elite company on that list, she does NOT belong. she's no weight carrier like kelso, she hasn't smashed a mile record under a huge impost like dr fager, she hasn't shipped all over and beaten all comers on mulitiple surfaces like round table, who ran for years, including in the spring classics vs the likes of iron liege and bold ruler. how is saying she does not compare to some of the truest greats ever to grace this sport degrading to her?! it is degrading to those great horses to have her on the same list! find one time that i 'degraded' her, her races, her performances. just one. now, if you find my lack of real respect for her in regards to the likes of damascus, sword dancer, and count fleet, war admiral, etc degrading...well, then i guess i'm guilty. gimme a break.

one damned win in unrestricted company and she's one of the top 20.

if that's considered great, i guess great isn't so great anymore. as for jon white, remind me how he was right on POTN winning the tc again...yeah, he's so smart. his opinion is unassailable.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i'm not quite sure how saying she isn't comparable to ruffian is degrading. considering what ruffian did, how she ran, and her records and wins....i don't think i'm wrong in this case. i like zenyatta, as i do any racehorse, i appreciate what she's done. however, i would not go so far as to rank her above one of the best race fillies ever, nor do i think zenyatta belongs in the top 20 in the last fifty years. considering the elite company on that list, she does NOT belong. she's no weight carrier like kelso, she hasn't smashed a mile record under a huge impost like dr fager, she hasn't shipped all over and beaten all comers on mulitiple surfaces like round table, who ran for years, including in the spring classics vs the likes of iron liege and bold ruler. how is saying she does not compare to some of the truest greats ever to grace this sport degrading to her?! it is degrading to those great horses to have her on the same list! find one time that i 'degraded' her, her races, her performances. just one. now, if you find my lack of real respect for her in regards to the likes of damascus, sword dancer, and count fleet, war admiral, etc degrading...well, then i guess i'm guilty. gimme a break.

Don't bother. Where does she rank if she lost by a head last out? Where does she rank if she loses to the usual drivel in the Hirsh or whatever soft spot the run in next? Here is a good way to measure the horses above, if any of them lost their last race would they plummet in the theoretical rankings like Zenyatta would?

[letswastemoney]

How are you supposed to compare Zenyatta to dirt horses who have much more than 2 wins on dirt??!?!?!?! It makes nooooooooooooooo sense to me.

This is about as useful as comparing Bayakoa's career vs. Flawlessly! Ouija Board vs. Ghostzapper.

To make lists like Jon White made, you have to assume the dynamics of synthetic racing is similar to most dirt tracks, especially the type of dirt tracks the top horses on those lists ran on. Otherwise, it's a difficult comparison given the differences in what it takes to win on each surface.

[PatCummings]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Don't bother. Where does she rank if she lost by a head last out? Where does she rank if she loses to the usual drivel in the Hirsh or whatever soft spot the run in next? Here is a good way to measure the horses above, if any of them lost their last race would they plummet in the theoretical rankings like Zenyatta would?

Agree, completely.

Two words...

Anabaa's Creation.

That is all.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Don't bother. Where does she rank if she lost by a head last out? Where does she rank if she loses to the usual drivel in the Hirsh or whatever soft spot the run in next? Here is a good way to measure the horses above, if any of them lost their last race would they plummet in the theoretical rankings like Zenyatta would?

(emphasis added)

A very good observation, CS.

--Dunbar

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by smuthg

Isn't there only one call that really matters in racing, the one that has 17 straight "1"s in it for Zenyatta.

I realize its hard to believe, but when you have people like Jon White and Steve Davidowitz saying that Zenyatta is the best mare or one of the two best mares they've ever seen, shouldn't that make you look at and appreciate Zenyatta rather than continue to degrade her and her performances???

no, if anything it makes you question Jon White and Davidowitz

[slotdirt]

Hasn't J. White been sort of discredited in so far as his opinion on the relatively ability of horses goes after the 2009 Triple Crown series?

[johnny pinwheel]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Hasn't J. White been sort of discredited in so far as his opinion on the relatively ability of horses goes after the 2009 Triple Crown series?

who believes in any of this dribble anyway? some moron prints up one these lists and its supposed to be the holy grail of racing? its like some of these threads. "what was the best 5 defeats of male horses by a feamle since 2005" or some such crap. does it really matter? how does anyone know? were they out there running in the field? who crowns these so called "experts " with the authority to claim such crap? and furthurmore, who are the fools that read this stuff and buy into it? i hope they bet horses.....lol. #7 or #8 on the list is better than #4....even though #8 raced 45 year ago and died about 35 years ago. instead of handicapping and winning some money...i think i'll analyze this and waste my time, telling folks why #5 is better than #6...then people wonder why this guy sucks.....its hilarious to read and see people argue...but it makes no sense whatsoever!

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by smuthg

Isn't there only one call that really matters in racing, the one that has 17 straight "1"s in it for Zenyatta.

Pepper's Pride had 19 straight 1's and retired sound and undefeated.

Difficulty of schedule and quality of performance both matter a whole lot more to me than results. It's not hard to look visually impressive when you're going by pathetic horses like Dance to My Tune and Taptam in the late stages of a race. A Euro reject who really loves rubber tracks almost beat her despite racing for the first time off of a 3 month layoff and losing a shoe on the far turn in her most recent race.

Obviously Zenyatta would crush the hapless Pepper's Pride, but she's mostly stayed home and dined on cupcakes for much of her career. The few times she's really needed to deliver a somewhat respectable performance to win she has done it, and her trainer is the best out there at pointing for a goal and getting the peak effort.

I don't have a whole lot of respect for our turf horses and synthetic horses. They're junk in relation to whats in Europe and probably no better than a lot of countries where Americans hardly know racing even exists. Our dirt horses are almost always so wildly superior to other countries that it isn't even funny. Zenyatta, Nashoba's Key, Informed Decision, Ventura they are truly our all-time great rubber females. They are the four prettiest girls in the entire history of Camp Fat. To Zenyatta's credit, she's had two wins when she's left her fat camp stomping grounds ... the problem was neither performance was that inspiring and her competiton wasn't even close to being on par with the attached Grade 1 status.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Oh for sure.
Affirmed had a good record but he got it by running against mules like Spectacular Bid, Alydar, Seattle Slew, Exceller, Sensitive Prince, etc. He couldn't have handled the horses Zenyatta has faced.

C'mon though. A healthy dose of delusion isn't all bad is it? I mean the cast of the Jersey Shore's gettin' paid on account of delusion.

PS. Speaking of which, if Snooki or the Situation presents the trophy at the Haskell, gag me with a spoon.