I need to listen to ATR more often

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Now you're just talking about semantics. If a guy says that he thinks a horse is "one of the all-time greats", is that putting a crown on the horse's head? I don't know the answer to that. The guy is just giving his opinion. I don't know if I would define that as "putting a crown on her head".

Sounds like you're the one arguing semantics. The point is, he bestowed extreme praise on her and then backed off by saying he's not crowning her. Both ways it can't be.

And yes, he lacks perspective when he aligns the achievements of Personal Ensign and Zenyatta the way he does. What Zenyatta did against St Trinians, while impressive, is absolutely irrelevant to what PE did against Winning Colors, because their competition were in two completely different classes of animal.

See, this is the problem with Zenyatta freaks. They like comparing her to the great racemares of the past, and their justification for doing so is her record and her running style. But record and running style are next to meaningless if you're beating up on ordinary horses 95% of the time. And yes, ST is an ordinary horse, I don't care what the toteboard in the Big Cap said.

It's also a problem with racing fans in general, the constant impulse to compare horses of the present to horses of the past, and it's usually unfair to the horse of the present. Instead of everyone appreciating Zenyatta for what she is, a very good mare with a beautiful and admirable will to win, rational racing fans are inundated with comparisons to Cigar and Citation and Personal Ensign and Secretariat and Picasso and Rembrandt. It's tiresome and unnecessary. Why is there such a rush to measure up the stars of today against the ghosts of the past while horses like Zenyatta are still writing their own stories?

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Sounds like you're the one arguing semantics. The point is, he bestowed extreme praise on her and then backed off by saying he's not crowning her. Both ways it can't be.

And yes, he lacks perspective when he aligns the achievements of Personal Ensign and Zenyatta the way he does. What Zenyatta did against St Trinians, while impressive, is absolutely irrelevant to what PE did against Winning Colors, because their competition were in two completely different classes of animal.

See, this is the problem with Zenyatta freaks. They like comparing her to the great racemares of the past, and their justification for doing so is her record and her running style. But record and running style are next to meaningless if you're beating up on ordinary horses 95% of the time. And yes, ST is an ordinary horse, I don't care what the toteboard in the Big Cap said.

It's also a problem with racing fans in general, the constant impulse to compare horses of the present to horses of the past, and it's usually unfair to the horse of the present. Instead of everyone appreciating Zenyatta for what she is, a very good mare with a beautiful and admirable will to win, rational racing fans are inundated with comparisons to Cigar and Citation and Personal Ensign and Secretariat and Picasso and Rembrandt. It's tiresome and unnecessary. Why is there such a rush to measure up the stars of today against the ghosts of the past while horses like Zenyatta are still writing their own stories?

Davidowitz only backed off when he was getting admonished for "anointing" Zenyatta. He was basically saying, "I'm not "anointing" her. I'm just giving my opinion." What's wrong with a guy giving his opinion, even if he is wrong. I think Davidowitz knows enough about the game to be able to give an opinion. His opinion is certainly an educated opinion whether you agree or disagree with him.

I agree with you that it is tough to compare current stars to past stars in any sport but people still like to try to do it. It makes for interesting conversation. Everyone has a different opinion.

There are people who are "positive" that Tiger Woods is better than Jack Nicklaus and there are others that are "sure" that Jack was better.

Any time someone (a person or a horse) keeps winning, the question will always come up as to how this person (or horse) would comapre to stars of the the past.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

It's also a problem with racing fans in general, the constant impulse to compare horses of the present to horses of the past, and it's usually unfair to the horse of the present. Instead of everyone appreciating Zenyatta for what she is, a very good mare with a beautiful and admirable will to win, rational racing fans are inundated with comparisons to Cigar and Citation and Personal Ensign and Secretariat and Picasso and Rembrandt. It's tiresome and unnecessary. Why is there such a rush to measure up the stars of today against the ghosts of the past while horses like Zenyatta are still writing their own stories?

You mean like the people last year (whether accurate or not is irrelevant if I understand your point) who were saying that Rachel was in the midst of the "greatest" campaign ever authored by a 3YO filly.

[Smooth Operator]

WOW … 10 of PE's 13 career races were at the same race track???

That's hilarious.


Gotta find out more about some of these 'monster' mares from the past (like WC) when I get a chance


By the way, you guys do realize that turf titans such as Funny Cide, Charismatic, and Mine That Bird have also won the KY Derby … right?

[Arletta]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

WOW … 10 of PE's 13 career races were at the same race track???

That's hilarious.


Gotta find out more about some of these 'monster' mares from the past (like WC) when I get a chance


By the way, you guys do realize that turf titans such as Funny Cide, Charismatic, and Mine That Bird have also won the KY Derby … right?

They won all over.. whats your point?

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

WOW … 10 of PE's 13 career races were at the same race track???

That's hilarious.


Gotta find out more about some of these 'monster' mares from the past (like WC) when I get a chance


By the way, you guys do realize that turf titans such as Funny Cide, Charismatic, and Mine That Bird have also won the KY Derby … right?

Man, just stop. If you are comparing Winning Colors to Charismatic and Mine That Bird to justify your ridiculous position, you are even more moronic than anyone here could possibly have imagined.

I assure you, any number of the colts that WC beat in her Derby, horses like Risen Star and Forty Niner, would have handled Zenyatta.

Your stupidity just is mind boggling.

[Smooth Operator]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Man, just stop. If you are comparing Winning Colors to Charismatic and Mine That Bird to justify your ridiculous position, you are even more moronic than anyone here could possibly have imagined.

I assure you, any number of the colts that WC beat in her Derby, horses like Risen Star and Forty Niner, would have handled Zenyatta.

Your stupidity just is mind boggling.

This from the genius who would've advised the hairpiece guy to put the $100k on Line of David instead of Super Saver in the Derby … LMAO


Well, I see this WC was 8 for 19 lifetime (42%) … not exactly the stuff of legends

Looks like she got brave while running loose on the lead in the annual crapshoot at CD and was able to hang on (barely) at the end for the fluky W.

Not surprisingly, she proceeded to get her butt kicked in the Preak and Bel.

I'll keep digging … but not real impressed so far.


Good thing Z didn't have to face a killer like this…

[Antitrust32]

[/b]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

This from the genius who would've advised the hairpiece guy to put the $100k on Line of David instead of Super Saver in the Derby … LMAO


Well, I see this WC was 8 for 19 lifetime (42%) … not exactly the stuff of legends

Looks like she got brave while running loose on the lead in the annual crapshoot at CD and was able to hang on (barely) at the end for the fluky W.

Not surprisingly, she proceeded to get her butt kicked in the Preak and Bel.

I'll keep digging … but not real impressed so far.


Good thing Z didn't have to face a killer like this…

You have to be fucl<ing kidding me!!!

Good luck in Bowl season this year.

[Gaining Ground]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

This from the genius who would've advised the hairpiece guy to put the $100k on Line of David instead of Super Saver in the Derby … LMAO


Well, I see this WC was 8 for 19 lifetime (42%) … not exactly the stuff of legends

Looks like she got brave while running loose on the lead in the annual crapshoot at CD and was able to hang on (barely) at the end for the fluky W.

Not surprisingly, she proceeded to get her butt kicked in the Preak and Bel.

I'll keep digging … but not real impressed so far.


Good thing Z didn't have to face a killer like this…

you aren't impressed with a filly winning the derby over the likes of forty niner, risen star, seeking the gold, private terms, brians time and others. but winning a race over gio ponti and twice over does impress you?

seems warped to me.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Gaining Ground

you aren't impressed with a filly winning the derby over the likes of forty niner, risen star, seeking the gold, private terms, brians time and others. but winning a race over gio ponti and twice over does impress you?

seems warped to me.

Everything She Does Is Magic.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Gaining Ground

you aren't impressed with a filly winning the derby over the likes of forty niner, risen star, seeking the gold, private terms, brians time and others. but winning a race over gio ponti and twice over does impress you?

seems warped to me.

or winning the SA Derby by 12

[Smooth Operator]

Originally Posted by Gaining Ground

you aren't impressed with a filly winning the derby over the likes of forty niner, risen star, seeking the gold, private terms, brians time and others. but winning a race over gio ponti and twice over does impress you?

seems warped to me.

Open G1 contests with $5 million purses impress me FAR more than restricted crapshoots for very young animals on the first Sat in May.

Seems like some fillies mature quicker and can more easily compete with colts early in their 3-year-old seasons

Usually a different story later in the year or when they turn four

WC's front-running score in the Derby was commendable … but something she never could've duplicated in a race like the BCC.

Somehow I don't think Shirreffs would've been shaking in his boots at the prospect of facing an 8 for19 monster like WC … lol


More to say to the usual nitwits … but gotta run now

[kgar311]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

This from the genius who would've advised the hairpiece guy to put the $100k on Line of David instead of Super Saver in the Derby … LMAO


Well, I see this WC was 8 for 19 lifetime (42%) … not exactly the stuff of legends

Looks like she got brave while running loose on the lead in the annual crapshoot at CD and was able to hang on (barely) at the end for the fluky W.

Not surprisingly, she proceeded to get her butt kicked in the Preak and Bel.

I'll keep digging … but not real impressed so far.


Good thing Z didn't have to face a killer like this…

Winning Colors won twice as many races against the boys as Zen did. I believe she won your precious Santa Anita Derby(which is an irrelevant race nowadays) At least she tried and campaigned against the boys unlike what Zen does. She took on the BEST male and female horses, EVERYTIME

[cakes44]

Yeah she didn't just win the Santa Anita Derby...she strapped it on and bent that field over.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4Y2bmxqB7o

[DaTruth]

Originally Posted by kgar311

Winning Colors won twice as many races against the boys as Zen did. I believe she won your precious Santa Anita Derby(which is an irrelevant race nowadays) At least she tried and campaigned against the boys unlike what Zen does. She took on the BEST male and female horses, EVERYTIME

In that Santa Anita Derby she beat Big Cap winner Ruhlman, millionaire Lively One who won the Swaps and Goodwood, and Tejano. She only lost the Preakness by 2.5 lengths, which was quite an accomplishment considering the steps Woody Stephens took to ensure she did not win.

[DaTruth]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

This from the genius who would've advised the hairpiece guy to put the $100k on Line of David instead of Super Saver in the Derby … LMAO


Well, I see this WC was 8 for 19 lifetime (42%) … not exactly the stuff of legends

Looks like she got brave while running loose on the lead in the annual crapshoot at CD and was able to hang on (barely) at the end for the fluky W.

Not surprisingly, she proceeded to get her butt kicked in the Preak and Bel.

I'll keep digging … but not real impressed so far.


Good thing Z didn't have to face a killer like this…

You can't be this stupid. It has to be an act - congrats, you've won an Oscar.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

Well, I see this WC was 8 for 19 lifetime (42%) … not exactly the stuff of legends

Looks like she got brave while running loose on the lead in the annual crapshoot at CD and was able to hang on (barely) at the end for the fluky W.


Good thing Z didn't have to face a killer like this…

That last part is the first sensical thing you've ever said about Zenyatta on here, even though you didn't mean it.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

You mean like the people last year (whether accurate or not is irrelevant if I understand your point) who were saying that Rachel was in the midst of the "greatest" campaign ever authored by a 3YO filly.

in the context of the years since the last filly to win a preakness, and with the fact she became the first 3 yo filly to win a gr 1 unrestricted versus older males, it was one hell of a campaign....greatest ever-maybe not. but it was certainly a rare one, especially in this day and age.