FBI Raids at Calder and Palm Meadows

[moses]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

I don't buy this assumption that EVERY owner must have known. There's a bit of grab the pitchforks and storm the castle mentality going on.

If the owners HAD to know, did the tracks HAVE to know also? Should we suspend/shut down every track that allowed these guys to run their horses?

I think you’re right. There are definitely owners who knew (Rockingham Ranch, for example). There are some who maybe should have known but never asked questions. And there are probably some who genuinely believed a guy like Servis was just that good.

Take the Wests. How long have they been in the business? 40 years? How much money do they have? I don’t think they’d be on board with what Servis was doing. Again...maybe they should have asked questions. But it’s hard for me to imagine that they intentionally sent a horse to Servis knowing the details of what he was doing. For successful, wealthy owners, I think Servis had a built in excuse and it resonated with owners. A lot of these people are used to people resenting their success and assuming they haven’t completely earned what they’ve got. Even if we assume they might have been aware of the rumors, they also may have been skeptical of them. Success breeds contempt and nobody knows that better than the super wealthy. Just a thought.

[jms62]

Every owner that sent horses to Servis and Navarro knew that those trainers where under question for Years and sent their horses anyway. Claiming they didn't know is laughable.. As a matter of fact it is mind boggling that anyone involved in the sport at any level is somehow surprised that these guys were cheats... I see so many "statements" being issued from different organizations involved in the sport. AYFKM? It would be best if they just didn't respond instead of now looking like ****ing hypocrites who stood around and did NOTHING for YEARS while this **** went on.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by jms62

Every owner that sent horses to Servis and Navarro knew that those trainers where under question for Years and sent their horses anyway. Claiming they didn't know is laughable.. As a matter of fact it is mind boggling that anyone involved in the sport at any level is somehow surprised that these guys were cheats... I see so many "statements" being issued from different organizations involved in the sport. AYFKM? It would be best if they just didn't respond instead of now looking like ****ing hypocrites who stood around and did NOTHING for YEARS while this **** went on.

I was going to respond also but you summed it up perfectly here.

If you send horses to move up trainers that win in the 30% range you’re co-signing on with whatever they do to attain that gaudy win %

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

I don't buy this assumption that EVERY owner must have known. There's a bit of grab the pitchforks and storm the castle mentality going on.

If the owners HAD to know, did the tracks HAVE to know also? Should we suspend/shut down every track that allowed these guys to run their horses?

They may not have known the specifics of what their trainers were doing, but the idea that they had no idea these guys were taking an edge to win at 30+% in a sport where winning at 15% is an accomplishment is laughable. And yeah, racetracks should share some blame too.

[moses]

Originally Posted by jms62

Every owner that sent horses to Servis and Navarro knew that those trainers where under question for Years and sent their horses anyway. Claiming they didn't know is laughable.. As a matter of fact it is mind boggling that anyone involved in the sport at any level is somehow surprised that these guys were cheats... I see so many "statements" being issued from different organizations involved in the sport. AYFKM? It would be best if they just didn't respond instead of now looking like ****ing hypocrites who stood around and did NOTHING for YEARS while this **** went on.

Originally Posted by Dahoss

I was going to respond also but you summed it up perfectly here.

If you send horses to move up trainers that win in the 30% range you’re co-signing on with whatever they do to attain that gaudy win %

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

They may not have known the specifics of what their trainers were doing, but the idea that they had no idea these guys were taking an edge to win at 30+% in a sport where winning at 15% is an accomplishment is laughable. And yeah, racetracks should share some blame too.

I generally agree with you guys...and that at the very least these owners SHOULD have known or asked more questions...but I think we are looking at it from the perspective of a bettor, not the perspective of a very wealthy owner.

I’m hesitant to say anything that even remotely defends them, but I don’t think it’s fair to assume what they did and didn’t know. Like I said, Rockingham Ranch appears to have been very much involved. I don’t think that’ll be the case for every owner. But yes, almost every owner should have known something was up.

And as an aside, Tom Albertrani and Barclay Tagg apparently use the same veterinarian as Servis. I’m not going to assume that either of those guys are somehow implicated by this though. I think we’ve got to see where things stand when the dust settles.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by moses

I generally agree with you guys...and that at the very least these owners SHOULD have known or asked more questions...but I think we are looking at it from the perspective of a bettor, not the perspective of a very wealthy owner.

I’m hesitant to say anything that even remotely defends them, but I don’t think it’s fair to assume what they did and didn’t know. Like I said, Rockingham Ranch appears to have been very much involved. I don’t think that’ll be the case for every owner. But yes, almost every owner should have known something was up.

And as an aside, Tom Albertrani and Barclay Tagg apparently use the same veterinarian as Servis. I’m not going to assume that either of those guys are somehow implicated by this though. I think we’ve got to see where things stand when the dust settles.

Moses with all due respect here since you seem to genuinely be a smart and nice guy. What you are saying would imply that the owners knew nothing whatsoever about the sport which they were investing huge sums of money in. They were all very successful in their core business. Do you think that they would just blindly spend millions of dollars without any research whatsoever nor seek expert opinions? We are not talking about someone that puts a couple hundred bucks into a 100 person Partnership here..

[Benny]

couldn't copy the data from the
searchbut the 2019 trainers is interesting

current trainer stats gulfstream 2020


http://www.equibase.com/stats/View.c...trainer&rbt=TB

monmouth 2019 meet

http://www.equibase.com/stats/View.c...trainer&rbt=TB

[moses]

Originally Posted by jms62

Moses with all due respect here since you seem to genuinely be a smart and nice guy. What you are saying would imply that the owners knew nothing whatsoever about the sport which they were investing huge sums of money in. They were all very successful in their core business. Do you think that they would just blindly spend millions of dollars without any research whatsoever nor seek expert opinions? We are not talking about someone that puts a couple hundred bucks into a 100 person Partnership here..

Ugh. I’m struggling with this because a large part of me really doesn’t want to accept that people could be so terrible.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by moses

Ugh. I’m struggling with this because a large part of me really doesn’t want to accept that people could be so terrible.

They are. Most gazillionaires are. Time to cope with that reality my man.

[moses]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

They are. Most gazillionaires are. Time to cope with that reality my man.

I’ve been going back and forth. My initial thought was “they knew.” I’ve probably overthought it.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by moses

I’ve been going back and forth. My initial thought was “they knew.” I’ve probably overthought it.

I think Ateam hit the nail on the head saying they might not have known the specifics, but they knew they were doing something to get an edge.

I get that the West’s are very philanthropic but they’ve employed guys like Cole Norman in the past. Not to speak ill of the dead but he won at an obscene rate and before he went to prison for 9 months for negligent homicide he was facing a lengthy suspension for carbon dioxide violations.

They like to win. Period.

[ScottJ]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

I think Ateam hit the nail on the head saying they might not have known the specifics, but they knew they were doing something to get an edge.

I get that the West’s are very philanthropic but they’ve employed guys like Cole Norman in the past. Not to speak ill of the dead but he won at an obscene rate and before he went to prison for 9 months for negligent homicide he was facing a lengthy suspension for carbon dioxide violations.

They like to win. Period.

I will say it one more time. Forget about the Wests - no one gave a damn about them in New York. What about Michael Dubb? That's the lightening rod.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by ScottJ

I will say it one more time. Forget about the Wests - no one gave a damn about them in New York. What about Michael Dubb? That's the lightening rod.

I don’t disagree.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

I don’t disagree.

Dubb is supposed to know better. Winning is a lot more fun than losing

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Dubb is supposed to know better. Winning is a lot more fun than losing

But he doesn't. Aside from a rather brief time when he used Joe Orseno about 15 years ago, Dubb's primary New York trainer has always been among the "suspects of the day." Against this backdrop, it is very disappointing when media who are supposed to know better try to portray him and the other "juice owners" that comprise the clientele of trainers like Servis and Navarro as "sharp" when the reality is that they are the game's more ethically challenged owners.

I'd love to have someone ask Mike Repole why he starting using Rudy and Navarro in the past year. Trying to keep up with the Dubbs?

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

But he doesn't. Aside from a rather brief time when he used Joe Orseno about 15 years ago, Dubb's primary New York trainer has always been among the "suspects of the day." Against this backdrop, it is very disappointing when media who are supposed to know better try to portray him and the other "juice owners" that comprise the clientele of trainers like Servis and Navarro as "sharp" when the reality is that they are the game's more ethically challenged owners.

I'd love to have someone ask Mike Repole why he starting using Rudy and Navarro in the past year. Trying to keep up with the Dubbs?

Repole is a bad example he has given a lot of smallish trainers in NY a shot

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Repole is a bad example he has given a lot of smallish trainers in NY a shot

Not really. He gave Levine some horses and while my memory isn’t what it used to be, it’s been mostly Pletcher for close to a decade.

Within the last year he’s spread a little but the fact he sent Navarro horses AFTER the juiceman video and AFTER all of his medications overages is a really bad look.

[bare it all]

I'm looking at a bunch of these owners using some of these trainers and claiming "I DIDNT KNOW" as the clueless partner in a relationship with a cheater. I've seen men/women refuse to accept they were cheated on despite mountains of evidence until a baby with a paternity test proving it shows up.

The FBI just dropped the paternity test off to these owners and they're SHOCKED they were cheated on and lied to...

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Not really. He gave Levine some horses and while my memory isn’t what it used to be, it’s been mostly Pletcher for close to a decade.

Within the last year he’s spread a little but the fact he sent Navarro horses AFTER the juiceman video and AFTER all of his medications overages is a really bad look.

Yep bad look for sure

[goodcopy]

For the horse and all aspects of training boarding and vet care!
Certainly, we can agree that all people indicated in race-fixing or race "Doping" should be "Cut Loose" Fired and immediately suspended and ran off all tracks.
Let's get all the facts, prosecute with honest due diligence and get rid of this and get on with the "Sport of Kings"
Stop acting like this is a bush track in Alabama and realize that this is at the very root of the game and the gambling that makes it go.
This is a watershed moment for this industry but I know of many very smart people and people with absolute honesty that can take charge of this and get us a national drug-testing program recognize the world over and get me back trying to hit that damm cross country pick 5