Week/Weekend Stakes Beyers: Pharoah 105; Honor Code 112

[Indian Charlie]

By using Rollo logic, Munnings would have won this years triple crown because his son 'dusted' AP in their debuts, and AP is slow because his sire lost a race.

[Pants II]

Is it possible that AP's competition had smaller hearts?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

By using Rollo logic, Munnings would have won this years triple crown because his son 'dusted' AP in their debuts, and AP is slow because his sire lost a race.

I figured you would grab the bit and runoff with the little digressions, rather than the actual content, which centered on Rachel Alexandra's 3yo campaign. Nothing new there.

Hopefully, Freddy will bring more intelligence and focus to this discussion.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I figured you would grab the bit and runoff with the little digressions, rather than the actual content, which centered on Rachel Alexandra's 3yo campaign. Nothing new there.

Hopefully, Freddy will bring more intelligence and focus to this discussion.

Funny.

You've been the one bringing the little digressions to the table.

Nothing new there at all.

At this point, I'd take Smooth Operator for intelligence and focus.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Funny.

You've been the one bringing the little digressions to the table.

Nothing new there at all.

At this point, I'd take Smooth Operator for intelligence and focus.

Of course I brought the digressions in, because I am actually posting content on this thread, rather than "look at me" strutting and feigned vexation about how it is possible that all details regarding American Pharoah's Triple Crown performances are not afforded otherworldly status simply because he won all 3 races.

That you would focus on those coincidental tidbits rather than the main thrust of the post shows you have little to offer in terms of response. This goes along with your original posts, which either disparage other people for holding a contrary opinion, or spew vague fluff about being too inarticulate to explain why the Brooklyn race shouldn't be compared to the Belmont Stakes, or ridiculous meaningless drivel about American Pharoah's stride.

Carry on.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Of course I brought the digressions in, because I am actually posting content on this thread, rather than "look at me" strutting and feigned vexation about how it is possible that all details regarding American Pharoah's Triple Crown performances are not afforded otherworldly status simply because he won all 3 races.

That you would focus on those coincidental tidbits rather than the main thrust of the post shows you have little to offer in terms of response. This goes along with your original posts, which either disparage other people for holding a contrary opinion, or spew vague fluff about being too inarticulate to explain why the Brooklyn race shouldn't be compared to the Belmont Stakes, or ridiculous meaningless drivel about American Pharoah's stride.

Carry on.

Your content is nonsensical and irrelevant to the discussion at hand. That I went for your obvious attempt to bait me was intentional. I'll repeat, you've said nothing useful at all, despite your self projecting that onto me.

I have not strutted about being right, not even once. Nor have you admitted to being wrong.

I've also been realistic about Pharoah's overall ability. Show me where I've come close to calling him the best ever, one of the all time greats, etc. You won't, because you can't, because it doesn't exist from me.

Prior to you and a couple of others disparaging my posts, I never disparaged anyones opinions. I did question why so many people loved Upstart so much and that I thought he was extremely overrated, but I even backtracked a little on that once I watched his entire body of work in one sitting. I've at least been honest and admitted when I may have had an unfair opinion.

I have not gloated, nor have I done any I told you so's. I guarantee however had AP lost, I'd be buried in sewage by a small minded cretin such as yourself.

You are right that I put forth a poor effort in trying to explain why I believe the Brooklyn is not relevant, but again, I at least admit to my deficiencies.

Where the hell was your opinion on the triple crown beforehand? Maybe lost in some Rachel Alexandra fantasy about her being an all time great??

Perhaps my musings on AP's stride are nonsensical bits of drivel, but oddly, my observations about such things are right a lot more frequently than wrong.

You on other hand, you hide behind a computer screen sniping at people and offer nothing worth reading.

Maybe it's possible that you realize it's smarter to keep your opinions to yourself, because you don't want the inane criticism that you are so joyous about dishing out.

I feel badly for you.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Perhaps my musings on AP's stride are nonsensical bits of drivel, but oddly, my observations about such things are right a lot more frequently than wrong.


I feel badly for you.

Honestly how do you really no if you are more right then wrong if you dont bet?

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Honestly how do you really no if you are more right then wrong if you dont bet?

I'm basing that statement on the opinions I post here, or discuss with people outside of here (mostly here), and whether or not they come true or not.

I'm absolutely the worst horse better in history.

If there is a way to bet a race wrong, I will.

I once had a streak one summer in the 80's where I had something like 36 or 38 straight win bets hit the board, but all lose. You'd think I'd have figured out during that streak how to capitalize on that, but nope, never happened.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Your content is nonsensical and irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Weird, because during all your miffed prancing and preening, Freddy (you know, person I was responding to) and I have been holding a conversation.

That I went for your obvious attempt to bait me was intentional.

You take yourself too seriously. Do you actually think those were aimed at you? The fact that Rachel Alexandra ran against Munnings and Pioneerof The Nile is mere coincidence. I simply pointed it out.

You've pre-empted for yourself the presidency of the American Pharoah fanboy club. I hope you don't follow in the footsteps of your Selena counterpart.

I'll repeat, you've said nothing useful at all, despite your self projecting that onto me.

Relevant to the Proceedings of the 1st Annual Indian Charlie as Lord Fanboy of the American Pharoah Fan Club? I guess not.

I've also been realistic about Pharoah's overall ability. Show me where I've come close to calling him the best ever, one of the all time greats, etc. You won't, because you can't, because it doesn't exist from me.

None of that means you haven't expressed disappointment, dare I say outrage, that American Pharoah hasn't earned higher speed figures.

Prior to you and a couple of others disparaging my posts, I never disparaged anyones opinions. I did question why so many people loved Upstart so much and that I thought he was extremely overrated, but I even backtracked a little on that once I watched his entire body of work in one sitting. I've at least been honest and admitted when I may have had an unfair opinion.

Translation:

I didn't do it! Well...just that one time...and that other... hey, I said I was sorry!

I have not gloated, nor have I done any I told you so's. I guarantee however had AP lost, I'd be buried in sewage by a small minded cretin such as yourself.

Yeah, we were all on the edge of our seats. Not to see if there would be a Triple Crown winner finally after nearly 4 decades...but whether or not Indian Charlie would have to eat crow...

An why exactly would we bury you, not indulge your ridiculous ego a little further? To hear you tell it, you've been nothing but critical of AP's abilities and never suggested he was an all-time great.

Where the hell was your opinion on the triple crown beforehand?

Somewhere in there. I think I said that American Pharoah's best chance to win was to go wire-to-wire and that Materiality would be a factor.

One out of two ain't bad.

Perhaps my musings on AP's stride are nonsensical bits of drivel, but oddly, my observations about such things are right a lot more frequently than wrong.

More fluff. Perhaps a lint trap is in order.

You on other hand, you hide behind a computer screen sniping at people and offer nothing worth reading.

Yet it's worth responding to. Interesting.

I feel badly for you.

You take on too much responsibility for things that have nothing to do with you.

Take a rest. Please.

[Kasept]

Jerry Brown brought up a germane additional point to the figure (vis a vis Brooklyn/Belmont) which is that Coach Inge carried 117 to Pharoah's 126. Adjusting for weight, the suggested Beyer would be a 107.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I figured you would grab the bit and runoff with the little digressions, rather than the actual content, which centered on Rachel Alexandra's 3yo campaign. Nothing new there.

Hopefully, Freddy will bring more intelligence and focus to this discussion.

I loved Rachel like no filly/mare. Her campaign was stunning her Haskell was incredible and she is an all time filly Maybe and I mean maybe she is second behind Personal Ensign but I am splitting hairs. I never had any use for Zenyatta not because I didnt realize she was wonderful just because she was handled not to lose and save her Apple Blossom/BCC's she was to conservatively spotted(maybe that's why she lasted?).

I realize its impossible and kind of fruitless to guess who was faster but for the sake of pure conjecture and fun. I think she could never beat AP. Again its just an opinion and impossible to have any faith in.

As for the Beyer fig I agree its rock solid and guessed it the night before. Beyer has not been impressed with AP's races, he has been impressed with accomplishments. Kind of sounds like the ole Cigar rhetoric you know he wins but he never wins running fast. I think if Materialty would have won by a nose against AP or Frosted and either of those 2 were 3rd 5 .5 lengths back Beyer would have used 108/09 because it would have given more credence to the Florida Derby Fig. To me the fig is just about as relevant as my opinion on who would have won a hypothetical Preakness between AP and Rachel.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by freddymo

As for the Beyer fig I agree its rock solid and guessed it the night before. Beyer has not been impressed with AP's races, he has been impressed with accomplishments. Kind of sounds like the ole Cigar rhetoric you know he wins but he never wins running fast. I think if Materialty would have won by a nose against AP or Frosted and either of those 2 were 3rd 5 .5 lengths back Beyer would have used 108/09 because it would have given more credence to the Florida Derby Fig. To me the fig is just about as relevant as my opinion on who would have won a hypothetical Preakness between AP and Rachel.

I'm not sure why you are hung up on the Florida Derby figure as if it is out of line. Does it matter? Upstart and Materiality where non-factors in their classic starts, that doesn't mean the figure for one race is bad. Both ran far below expectations and in fact have running lines that suggests something physically is amiss.

For years now, people have commented on certain big-figure horses at Gulfstream turning back into "pumpkins" outside it's friendly confines. Someone would have to go back and look closer at the average speed figures down there versus those by the same horses at other racetracks to perhaps identify a trend of this happening.

An obvious explanation for this is the permissive medication rules in Florida, which actually allows horses to be treated not only with lasix, but also with a potent fast-acting anti-inflammatory drug on raceday. It would be interesting to see what percentage of starters are treated with this drug.

Finally, it can't be at all shocking to think that figure wise, the Belmont Stakes tends to get lower figures than other races. It's a 12 furlong race. Just because a horse can run a 112 BSF for 9f, doesn't mean it will run a similar figure at 12f.

See Coach Inge's numbers...if you think they are relevant.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I'm not sure why you are hung up on the Florida Derby figure as if it is out of line. Does it matter? Upstart and Materiality where non-factors in their classic starts, that doesn't mean the figure for one race is bad. Both ran far below expectations and in fact have running lines that suggests something physically is amiss.

For years now, people have commented on certain big-figure horses at Gulfstream turning back into "pumpkins" outside it's friendly confines. Someone would have to go back and look closer at the average speed figures down there versus those by the same horses at other racetracks to perhaps identify a trend of this happening.

An obvious explanation for this is the permissive medication rules in Florida, which actually allows horses to be treated not only with lasix, but also with a potent fast-acting anti-inflammatory drug on raceday. It would be interesting to see what percentage of starters are treated with this drug.

Finally, it can't be at all shocking to think that figure wise, the Belmont Stakes tends to get lower figures than other races. It's a 12 furlong race. Just because a horse can run a 112 BSF for 9f, doesn't mean it will run a similar figure at 12f.

See Coach Inge's numbers...if you think they are relevant.

The fig is accurate for the Florida derby but frequently "makers" revisit numbers and adjust them accordingly. Seems to me this one needs adjusting. Now if you subscribe to GP horses will always run faster because of more permissive medication on race day then it certainly enhances the BIG Fig Florida Derby rhetoric. I think we have seen plenty of GP runners not be able to replicate their GP form and that hopefully is abated soon with some more stringent testing practices in 2016? Who knows?

[letswastemoney]

Nine furlong speed figures have little to do with 12 furlongs!

That's like writing a six furlong champion is absolutely going to duplicate their numbers at nine furlongs.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

By using Rollo logic, Munnings would have won this years triple crown because his son 'dusted' AP in their debuts, and AP is slow because his sire lost a race.

The one thing I agree with Beyer on as it relates to AP besides the correct BSF is that the acid test will come against Older and IF he wins BCC all this conjecture on his speed and quality will rinse away.

IC. not all 105's are equal save the number