New Thoro-Graph record?

[Calzone Lord]

"Thoro-Graph banter has Royal Delta in the negative 5 range for Fleur de Lis. Might end up being their best number ever for a female."

I'd be interested to see Thoro-Graph post the 10 fastest figures from the entire year of 1994 in all races...

And compare them with the 10 fastest figures earned by horses in $10,000 claiming races or less in 2009.

I think people would be very surprised by the results.

[hockey2315]

Ya there was an interesting seminar at one of the DRF conferences in Las Vegas with Len Friedman, Jerry Brown and Beyer and a major topic of conversation was whether horses have gotten faster or slower. The sheets guys said faster, while Beyer said slower.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

Ya there was an interesting seminar at one of the DRF conferences in Las Vegas with Len Friedman, Jerry Brown and Beyer and a major topic of conversation was whether horses have gotten faster or slower. The sheets guys said faster, while Beyer said slower.

Yep. That is what is reflected on their figures.

On Beyers, horses have become a few points slower at all class levels over the last few years. A 115 twelve years ago would be like a 108-to-110 today. A 85 from 1999 would be like a 79 today.

On Ragozin Sheets, horses have become a little faster at all class levels over the last 10 to 12 years.

On Thoro-Graph Sheets, horses have become MUCH faster at all class levels over the last 10 to 12 years. Cheap claimers are now as fast as Great Hall of Famers.

However, all 3 figures have remained fairly consistent from class level to class level through time period to time period.

Thus, if you anchor the scales down with class pars -- all 3 of them will allow you a very comparison of todays horses with past horses at all class levels.

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Yep. That is what is reflected on their figures.

On Beyers, horses have become a few points slower at all class levels over the last few years. A 115 twelve years ago would be like a 108-to-110 today. A 85 from 1999 would be like a 79 today.

On Ragozin Sheets, horses have become a little faster at all class levels over the last 10 to 12 years.

On Thoro-Graph Sheets, horses have become MUCH faster at all class levels over the last 10 to 12 years. Cheap claimers are now as fast as Great Hall of Famers.

However, all 3 figures have remained fairly consistent from class level to class level through time period to time period.

Thus, if you anchor the scales down with class pars -- all 3 of them will allow you a very comparison of todays horses with past horses at all class levels.

What are the fastest TG numbers ever for a male horse? I think Midnight Lute twice ran a negative 7. I've never seen better than that.

[Calzone Lord]

Midnight Lute broke Ghostzapper's record and currently holds it.

[golfer]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Midnight Lute broke Ghostzapper's record and currently holds it.

For whatever it's worth, while Midnight Lute did pair negative 7's, the fastest TG figure EVER was Quality Road's Negative 7.5 at Gulfstream in Feb of 2010, Donn Handcap.

[Siena 16]

Thorograph as usual has too many negative numbers

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Siena 16

Thorograph as usual has too many negative numbers

The scale only matters when comparing horses from different time periods.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

"Thoro-Graph banter has Royal Delta in the negative 5 range for Fleur de Lis. Might end up being their best number ever for a female."

I'd be interested to see Thoro-Graph post the 10 fastest figures from the entire year of 1994 in all races...

And compare them with the 10 fastest figures earned by horses in $10,000 claiming races or less in 2009.

I think people would be very surprised by the results.

I know she has always had a fairly big reputation, but had Royal Delta ever run a fast race before the Fleur de Lis? Who was behind her?

I kinda of thought she won the BC by default, with Havre de Grace opting for the Classic. Before that, she seemed to be an in-and-outer.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I know she has always had a fairly big reputation, but had Royal Delta ever run a fast race before the Fleur de Lis? Who was behind her?

I kinda of thought she won the BC by default, with Havre de Grace opting for the Classic. Before that, she seemed to be an in-and-outer.

Her BC Distaff win was very good imo. She closed into a slow pace and flew late to beat It's Tricky ... but no, she never ran super fast before this weekend.

Keep in mind, on Thoro-Graph, they factor in weight (this race was a handicap) and ground loss (she's a closer and gets wide trips) -- so a 110 Beyer type race for her is always going to look faster on Sheets.

Seems like virtually all of the record figures come at age 4.

[Revidere]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I know she has always had a fairly big reputation, but had Royal Delta ever run a fast race before the Fleur de Lis? Who was behind her?

I kinda of thought she won the BC by default, with Havre de Grace opting for the Classic. Before that, she seemed to be an in-and-outer.

It's the Mike Smith factor.

Originally Posted by Revidere

It's the Mike Smith factor.

That reminds me of a story. I once asked Jerry Brown if he ever came accross a jockey that actually made the horses faster. He said only one. Laffit Pincay Jr. Said he did a study that showed times when the data seemed to prove that Pincay sometimes changed the number by a quarter point. Sounded rather fantastic to me but having seen Spend A Buck's Jersey Derby live. I was in no position to argue.

Is there a TG rating for European Horses? If so, what would Frankel get after todays performance.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by helicopter11

Is there a TG rating for European Horses? If so, what would Frankel get after todays performance.

Probably not very fast. At least not nearly as fast as you'd think.

TG has European horses slow. Most Euro's will come over here and improve by leaps and bounds on TG.

[Thunder Gulch]

Originally Posted by helicopter11

Is there a TG rating for European Horses? If so, what would Frankel get after todays performance.

So hard to put TG or any speed figure on the Euro's because of pacing. Frankel's front running or pressing styles help the figure, but it's still a highly subjective task to reach the Timeform ratings.

In their defense, TG strongly discounted the Euro Turf horses last year going into the Breeders Cup when most said they were a cut above, and if you listened to Brown there was a jackpot to be made.

[KirisClown]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

I'd be interested to see Thoro-Graph post the 10 fastest figures from the entire year of 1994 in all races...

And compare them with the 10 fastest figures earned by horses in $10,000 claiming races or less in 2009.

I think people would be very surprised by the results.

Why 1994?

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by KirisClown

Why 1994?

Thoro-Graph had all of the horses at all of the class levels throughout the country relatively very slow to where they are now as recently as the Mid 1990's.

By about 2009 -- the scale had reached peak after peak and Brown talked about doing stuff manually to scale it back and slow horses down.

[cakes44]

What was Lawyer Ron's # in the 2007 Whitney?

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by cakes44

What was Lawyer Ron's # in the 2007 Whitney?

negative 6

https://www.thorograph.com/archive/files/bc2007.pdf (Midnight Lute sheet in that BC package as well..)

[cakes44]

Originally Posted by Kasept

negative 6

https://www.thorograph.com/archive/files/bc2007.pdf (Midnight Lute sheet in that BC package as well..)

Hey thanks man!