Most Impressive in Defeat?

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

But when you add in ground loss, they look like this:

Havana		91	81
Strong Mandate	93	79
New Year's Day	81	79

Pretty tough to argue the winner was anything better than 3rd best (not that you needed numbers to see that, but this will be part of the future)

It would have been pretty swell if Havana managed to hold on.



I would have had a $30 trifecta if Havana lasted. The Tri paid $476.10 for a $1 with him second.

Gary Stevens never went to the whip on him. I don't know if that was by instruction or not ... but I was certainly counting the money on the far turn. It's a damn shame that race wasn't run on Friday.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

It would have been pretty swell if Havana managed to hold on.



I would have had a $30 trifecta if Havana lasted. The Tri paid $476.10 for a $1 with him second.

Gary Stevens never went to the whip on him. I don't know if that was by instruction or not ... but I was certainly counting the money on the far turn. It's a damn shame that race wasn't run on Friday.

If it were run on Friday Strong Mandate might have won!

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

If it were run on Friday Strong Mandate might have won!

I don't know, Havana put him away pretty easily on the far turn.

He just got hit in the head by the 1/16th pole and fell apart under a very confident ride.

I think Strong Mandate ran a great race though -- and they would have been a clear 1-2 on Friday's track.

Pletcher's horses ran lousy this week. Lukas had two great efforts on the day.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

It would have been pretty swell if Havana managed to hold on.

Gary Stevens never went to the whip on him. I don't know if that was by instruction or not ... but I was certainly counting the money on the far turn. It's a damn shame that race wasn't run on Friday.

He was told by Pletcher not to use the stick.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Kasept

He was told by Pletcher not to use the stick.

Was that publicized anywhere? I never heard it before, might have been useful info.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Was that publicized anywhere? I never heard it before, might have been useful info.

A listener to my show tweeted the question and Stevens answered it subsequently after his appearance.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Kasept

A listener to my show tweeted the question and Stevens answered it subsequently after his appearance.

On racing's biggest stage, bettors aren't told a rider is instructed not to use the whip. That is pretty weak.

[Payson Dave]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

On racing's biggest stage, bettors aren't told a rider is instructed not to use the whip. That is pretty weak.

I don't recall trainer instructions to jocks ever being made public before a race

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Payson Dave

I don't recall trainer instructions to jocks ever being made public before a race

That seems a little more than an instruction to me. Just my opinion, I'm sure many will disagree. But as a bettor I would definitely downgrade a horse that isn't going to be whipped.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

On racing's biggest stage, bettors aren't told a rider is instructed not to use the whip. That is pretty weak.

Since when are trainers instructions made public? Perhaps since Stevens has never been on the horse and was a last minute sub Pletcher told him something that was already known by his regular rider?

Is anyone who likes the horse on pp's not betting him because the trainer told the jockey the horse doesnt like the whip?

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Since when are trainers instructions made public? Perhaps since Stevens has never been on the horse and was a last minute sub Pletcher told him something that was already known by his regular rider?

Is anyone who likes the horse on pp's not betting him because the trainer told the jockey the horse doesnt like the whip?

Well, it isn't quite the same. We are told when horses won't have a whip, so why not when they won't use it?

What is the harm in divulging it? That is all I'm asking. We aren't talking about instructions about race strategy or anything. I don't see what the rider change matters, wouldn't hurt a thing to divulge the info with his regular rider either.

And yes, it is a handicapping factor. If whip use didn't matter, nobody would use them. You know that. So not using one is a disadvantage in a game where races are decided by scant margins.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Is anyone who likes the horse on pp's not betting him because the trainer told the jockey the horse doesnt like the whip?

I'm curious if you have an explanation as to what basis Pletcher might have had for thinking this horse sulks from the whip?

He's only run twice. He comes within 0.13 seconds of breaking a track record at 150 year-old Saratoga in his debut. He overcomes a mind-boggling pace to win the Champagne in career start #2.

What are the chances that Havana was ever whipped in one of his morning workouts?

If he hadn't sulked after being repeatedly whipped at Barrett's -- do you think he might have ran his furlong in 9 seconds flat?

I don't mind so much that he wasn't whipped, and I'm not sure it had any impact on the outcome ... it's just the frustration of seeing jockeys and trainers trying to impose their will and being cute when they don't need to.

[Calzone Lord]

It had to be by instruction. It looked kind of ridiculous.

I doubt it would have mattered any, because he was wide stalking a brutal fast pace chasing a pair of horses on some kind of suicide mission ... but still.

The horse ran a 9.60 furlong at Barrett's after being whipped repeatedly, no idea where Pletcher could have gathered that he hates being whipped.

I'm positive he was never hit with a whip in a morning workout. I guess he came to that conclusion based on Honor Code rallying at him in the Champagne? Debt Ceiling must also hate the whip, since he was eased and stopped to a walk because of the pace that day. Grand Arrival was beaten 20+ chasing that Champagne from 3rd as well. He obvious hates the whip.

Like I said, it probably didn't matter...but what a silly thing to instruct a jockey to do on an undefeated horse. The only time that horse was ever put to heavy whipping, he ran a furlong in 9.60 -- I guess that makes him a horse who sulks from the whip. He completely fell apart late under a lazy hand ride.

[zippyneedsawin]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Was that publicized anywhere? I never heard it before, might have been useful info.

I saw TAP interviewed before the race and he specifically said Havana didn't like the whip when asked if he had any special instructions for new rider Stevens.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Was that publicized anywhere? I never heard it before, might have been useful info.

It was mentioned on track feed. Pletcher said he was a tricky ride and they told Stevens he doesn't like whip.

[banter]

Reneesgotzip and Tightend Touchdown were impressive in losing the Turf Sprint; they made Mizdirection work for her win.

Touchdown was especially impressive to me because (1) he was the only non-CA-based horse to figure in the superfecta (Mizdirection, Tightend Touchdown, Reneesgotzip, Unbridled's Note), (2) he was the only horse in the superfecta that had never raced previously on SA's tricky downhill course, (3) he was the only horse in the superfecta to rise from the claiming ranks to make his first Grade 1 start, and (4) instead of leading at every call as he likes to do, he laid off Reneesgotzip, proving that he can rate a little. In other words, he put in a terrific performance despite his preferred running style and despite a lack of track and class experience.

The Turf Sprint is a race that, since its inception in 2008, when run at Santa Anita, has gone to a CA-based horse: Desert Code (2008), California Flag (2009); Mizdirection (2012); and Mizdirection (2013). That downhill course takes some learning. So Touchdown was running against the small but statistically significant data we have about the outcome of the race.

Don't know how TT was sent off, after a morning line of 12-1, at overlay odds of 18-1; this 4yo gelding runs and ships consistently well. He has not missed the trifecta in his last eleven starts at six tracks: Aqueduct, Belmont, Parx, Penn, Saratoga, and Santa Anita.

At any rate, kudos to Jason Servis for a top notch training job. My hat's off to you, sir.

I don't know about most impressive, but for least impressive, I nominate Ken Ramsey.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Kasept

He was told by Pletcher not to use the stick.

any idea why?