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#1
11-08-2006, 12:26 PM
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Remember, most of the all-time greats lost races - Does that make them not great IN YOUR OPINION?  
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#2
11-08-2006, 12:39 PM
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I think you are determined to not admit you were wrong IN ANY WAY. What you really should do is temper your specific enthusiam to a realistic level. Bernardini is a fine horse, most likely one of the best hundred or so in the time period you mention. But, his performances on the racetrack completely belie your opinion of him. Saying something is so does not make it so. A horse has only his performances to speak for him. I have always thought Bernardini was a nice horse. I also thought highly of Invasor and was far from surprised at Saturday's result. They were two evenly matched horses who would probably split decisions fairly evenly if they met a number of times. But, make no mistake, neither has done anything on the track to place them in any kind of elite group. Horses who were absolutely better? Off the top of my head....Ghostzapper, Holy Bull, Skip Away, Formal Gold, Candy Ride, Tiznow, Easy Goer, Sunday Silence, probably Cigar, AP Indy, Dubai Millenium. But the list of comparable horses is endless...Point Given, Medaglia D'Oro, maybe even Saint Liam, Smarty Jones, Silver Charm, Touch Gold, Lido Palace, Street Cry, Left Bank, Congaree, Will's Way...I'm sure you get the drift. You feel some sort of connection to Bernardini, which is great, but that doesn't alter his resume. What he is/was is another in a long line of nice horses who has a reasonable resume of success.
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#3
11-08-2006, 12:42 PM
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#4
11-08-2006, 11:30 PM
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Last edited by ateamstupid : 11-09-2006 at 12:04 AM.
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#5
11-08-2006, 11:43 PM
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   Everybody dance now!
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#6
11-09-2006, 12:10 AM
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Ghostzapper 4 Grade I wins (Classic, Vosburgh, Woodward, Metropolitan) He has 9 wins from 11 starts for earnings of $3.4mm. Horse of the year in 2004 Invasor 4 Grade I wins ( Classic, Whitney, Suburban, Pimlico Special) To me these are more prestigous races than what Zapper won. Also, Invasor has 9 wins from 10 starts with earnings of $3.6mm. Invasor will be crowned HOY of the year for the 2nd time. So Invasor has won more money and has a better win % and has won more prestigious Grade I races. In addition, he is still racing. Now looking at these two it is pretty even. But, the edge goes to Invasor based "on the track."
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#7
11-09-2006, 12:26 AM
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I'm tired...can I go to bed and finish this tomorrow....or do you just want to admit you were a little hasty in this one? By the way, Ghostzapper's speed figures were almost universally superior. I like Invasor a lot...I really do. Ghostzapper would have chuckled at him....if he ever even noticed him. By the way, have you recently watched a replay of Ghostzapper's Vosburgh? If not, please do, as I promise you that it is most enjoyable. Honestly, it may be one of the five most scintilating performances of any of our lifetimes. It was a thing of beauty. He aint even in the picture when the field turns for home...and he wins by almost seven. Now I'm getting weepy.
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#8
11-09-2006, 12:30 AM
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I am not comparing times or competition--just simply what they did on the track. The numbers do not lie. A better win % and more money earned and he is still racing. That is all there is to it. Do I think Zapper would beat Invasor--HECK YES. But if you are only comparing on the track, then Invasor has done more.
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#9
11-08-2006, 01:11 PM
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 I've seen most of those horses that you mentioned run and he is every bit as good as they were from a raw talent perspective IMO. Keep in mind that those horses got to run as older horses, which I think is VERY improtant to keep in to perspective because most of those were at their best as OLDER horses and not 3yos....Also, I think Invasor is a nice horse, but I also think that if he and Bernardini were to race 10 times, I reaqlly believe Bernie would win decisively 8 of the 10 times if they were both 100% - that is just my OPINION and can never be proven as fact...... The way Javier had to scrub on Bernardini going into the far turn I believe was evidence that he was not getting over the track well and he got beat by a horse who was getting over the track better than he was that day....it happens....that is why horses like Secretariat, etc. have lost before....
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#10
11-08-2006, 01:18 PM
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You can believe what you want, and maybe you're right, but you seem to make too many excuses for the horses you like. Maybe Castellano was scrubbing on him because he was finally in a competitive spot. It isn't as though his speed figure was substantially different than his other races. Suggesting he would beat Invasor 8 out of 10 times, especially being that he is already 0-1 is outlandish. You are underrating one and overrating the other. The simple fact is what happened Saturday disproved your previous opinions, so to speak. You were wrong about Bernardini, so what, but continuing to suggest something that is shown to not be true doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. Remember, when he needed more, he didn't have it, and that is specifically in contradiction to many of your pre-race comments.
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#11
11-08-2006, 01:20 PM
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No, the only thing I believe I was wrong about is that he lost the race because that is the only TRUE fact that you can point to. He didn't fire, but so what? We'll never know how good he really was and it will all be specualtion and OPINIONS on how good the horse really was.....period
 Bernardini would have NEVER let Sun King take him to a photo finish, but obviously that race was probably not Invasor's best, right? Think about it....we're talking about Sun King here 
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#12
11-08-2006, 01:27 PM
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#13
11-08-2006, 01:28 PM
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It's really amazing. Continuing to suggest that Bernardini somehow didn't run his race, because to not say that allows for the possibility that you overrated him ( dramatically ), even though it flies in the face of logic, is actually incredible. I guess speed figures are only relevent to you when they somehow prove your point. Not as incredible, however, as how you consistently deviate from the real conversation with some complete nonsequitor to somehow deflect from the real issue. It doesn't strengthen your argument....it weakens it substantially.
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#14
11-08-2006, 01:53 PM
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Answer me this: If Secreatriat would have retired after his Wood defeat to Angle Light and Sham prior to his Triple Crown run, would that have meant that he would have been not as good as Angle Light and Sham to you?....please I'm sorry you don't have the instincts to recognize raw talent when it is in front of you, which may be because you are so blinded by the fact that you don't like the big shots in this sports and their horses are always going to start off behind the eight ball with you.... You are entitled to your opinion like we all are ion this great country, but to say for fact that Bernardini was proved Saturday to be not as talented as he was made out to be is just pure specualtion - and STRICLTY your OPINION
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#15
11-08-2006, 01:55 PM
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It is my opinion that he was one of the most talented horses since the Bid and that he was the best horse I have ever seen - and I don't need anyone to validate that....
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#17
11-08-2006, 02:03 PM
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I never used any of your quotes in that post...not one - intentionally anyway. Quit giving yourself so much credit
 Ohhpp, guess you deleted the post.....
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#18
11-08-2006, 01:23 PM
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It's too bad that Bernardini isn't running next year...
The way this topic has turned is pointless... he will never have a shot at proving anything because he isn't running again.
__________________
http://www.facebook.com/cajungator26
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#19
11-08-2006, 01:29 PM
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That's true and to think he would have been better is no guarantee, he ran some nice sheet#'s, probably more consistent than any 3yo, but maybe he was done developing and was just an early developer, we don't know...But he never hit a Ghost Zapper, St. Liam, Commentator like number...
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#20
11-08-2006, 01:35 PM
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Invasor would probably lose 8 out of 9 to Bern because the fields wouldn't be that large. Probably would avg. 5.4 horses in the 9 races and Bern more than likely wouldn't have to suffer for being asked too early or have to move five wide, you know, like most champions of days past.
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