Duke/Davidson

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I watch more NBA games than is probably healthy and rarely get the sense that players arent playing hard. Most dont engage in fake hustle but the on the court game is far superior to college. To me college basketball is now like a watered down grade 1, maybe the race will be close but that doesnt mean it was a great race. The ironic part about the whole issue is that college coaches have less control than ever over thier good players which has led to the game being played at a lower level. Maybe you guys are too young to see it but college basketball aint what it was. The tourney is great but the rest of the season is pretty much the same crap over and over.

I think this is very true. The myth that the NBA guys aren't playing hard is way off. People think a guy like Chris Bosh is not playing hard or Michael Beasley is not playing hard because of their facial expressions or the smoothness they play with. Let me assure you that you can't go for 22 and 10 a night in the NBA if you aren't playing hard. It's impossible. They are playing as hard as the college guys, if not harder. The main reason is because they still have pride. Nobody wants to get embarrassed out there on national tv. The thing is these guys are SO GOOD that they sometimes make the difficult look easy. But they are playing hard.

The analogy to a watered down grade one race is a good one. I have that argument all the time. We might see some close, exciting games during the year. A game like UNC vs. Duke may include five or more future NBA players and be high in quality. But it's NOTHING like an NBA game. The quality of play in the NBA is light years beyond anything you will ever see in a college game. Dick Vitale did an NBA game the other night and he couldn't be more clear in his assessment that the NBA game is much better quality wise.

You are also correct when it comes to talking about the influence coaches have. There are some exceptions, guys like Coach K, Roy Williams, Calhoun, Izzo, and a few others. But most of these guys have little influence when they have a star player. They know for the most part that the star will be one and done and if there's any chance of trying to get them back for a second or third year, they coddle to them like crazy. O.J. Mayo had free reign at USC. Kevin Durant didn't even attend school in the second semester at Texas. Don't believe all that rah rah, playing for my school stuff. It's probably true at Siena or Vermont or Penn...but it's not true at the big time schools. Those guy are playing mostly to showcase their games for the NBA or Europe.

[ateamstupid]

Um, there are usually what, five or six one-and-done players in college basketball every year? Yet at the "big time schools," it's totally about showcasing for the league? Nice generalization genius.

And if you watched Celtics/LeBron last night, you'd know why the NBA sucks. The focus isn't the game, and it never will be. Instead it's about promoting the star and trying to justify obnoxious ad campaigns. Dan Shulman thinks "we are all witnesses." Thanks Dan, good to know. Can I have it my way at Burger King too?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Um, there are usually what, five or six one-and-done players in college basketball every year? Yet at the "big time schools," it's totally about showcasing for the league? Nice generalization genius.

And if you watched Celtics/LeBron last night, you'd know why the NBA sucks. The focus isn't the game, and it never will be. Instead it's about promoting the star and trying to justify obnoxious ad campaigns. Dan Shulman thinks "we are all witnesses." Thanks Dan, good to know. Can I have it my way at Burger King too?

Well, I'm not a genius but thank you for thinking that I am. Now, there may be 5-6 one and done guys but there are also plenty of guys that are sophomores, juniors, and seniors that also trying to play for the NBA. Guys like Tyler Hansborough, Stephen Curry, Blake Griffin, etc., guys that are not one and done but will be obvious NBA players. There are several guys at schools like Duke, UNC, and UConn that aren't one and done that will be in the NBA and they are trying to hone the games and work on the things that NBA scouts tell them they need to work on. Curry is a prime example. Everyone knows he can shoot the ball better than most NBA players. But at his size, he's likely going to have to be a point guard in the league. So that's why he's playing that position in this year, to get more experience at it and show the pros that he can do it. And it's important to note on this subject that just because all of the players at the big time schools don't go to the NBA doesn't mean that they don't have the mentality that says they think they belong there. I'd bet that 90%+ of the guys that sign on at top 10-20 schools feel like they are going to be in the NBA after college. I also said that not only are they showcasing their skills for the NBA but for Europe too. There is very good money to be made playing in Europe and Russia.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Curry is a prime example. Everyone knows he can shoot the ball better than most NBA players. But at his size, he's likely going to have to be a point guard in the league. So that's why he's playing that position in this year, to get more experience at it and show the pros that he can do it. And it's important to note on this subject that just because all of the players at the big time schools don't go to the NBA doesn't mean that they don't have the mentality that says they think they belong there. I also said that not only are they showcasing their skills for the NBA but for Europe too. There is very good money to be made playing in Europe and Russia.

No, he's playing the point because Jason Richards graduated.

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I'd bet that 90%+ of the guys that sign on at top 10-20 schools feel like they are going to be in the NBA after college.

This is completely false of course.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

No, he's playing the point because Jason Richards graduated.



This is completely false of course.

That is NOT why he's playing the point. It's part of the reason but the biggest one is because of what I said. I'm sure of it.

And as for the statement about the guys believing they will be pros, I suggest that you go to one of the camps for high school seniors to be. Go to one where they invite the top 150 juniors and poll them and see how many think they will be in the NBA. If you don't come up with 135 or more, I'd eat my hat. At that age, after being "stars" all through school, they have unrealistic evaluations of their own talents. Trust me, I know this from personal experience.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

That is NOT why he's playing the point. It's part of the reason but the biggest one is because of what I said. I'm sure of it.

And as for the statement about the guys believing they will be pros, I suggest that you go to one of the camps for high school seniors to be. Go to one where they invite the top 150 juniors and poll them and see how many think they will be in the NBA. If you don't come up with 135 or more, I'd eat my hat. At that age, after being "stars" all through school, they have unrealistic evaluations of their own talents. Trust me, I know this from personal experience.

Cut this **** out. This is your defense of everything. "I know this for a fact." Is there any subject you don't have inside information on? Polling All-American teams is different from what you said. And as for St. John's, all I'll say is that I wouldn't go there looking for the bastion of athlete's realism.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Cut this **** out. This is your defense of everything. "I know this for a fact." Is there any subject you don't have inside information on? Polling All-American teams is different from what you said. And as for St. John's, all I'll say is that I wouldn't go there looking for the bastion of athlete's realism.

How is it different? My original statment was that 90% of the guys that sign on to top 10-20 teams. How is that different than polling the all-American teams? Who do you think are the players signing on to those teams? Or maybe you think the all-Americans are signing on at Bradley and Marist and the top teams are getting the leftover scrubs. The all-Americans and the players going to the top teams are ONE AND THE SAME! It's not different.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

That is NOT why he's playing the point. It's part of the reason but the biggest one is because of what I said. I'm sure of it.

And as for the statement about the guys believing they will be pros, I suggest that you go to one of the camps for high school seniors to be. Go to one where they invite the top 150 juniors and poll them and see how many think they will be in the NBA. If you don't come up with 135 or more, I'd eat my hat. At that age, after being "stars" all through school, they have unrealistic evaluations of their own talents. Trust me, I know this from personal experience.

I actually agree with KG on this point. He's saying that until proven otherwise and they face reality that they are NOT an NBA talent, they have been told by everyone so many times that they will be an NBA stud they think it. 90% seems like a reasonable estimate.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

No, he's playing the point because Jason Richards graduated.



This is completely false of course.

Joe they ALL think they will make it. Send a PM to Storm Cadet and ask him what he see and hears FIRST HAND. And if you see a NBA player on St' Johns roster let me know.

As for the quality of announcers i give you Billy Packer and Dick Vitale...

[Cannon Shell]

I watch both college and pro hoops and I dont hate college and some NBA matchups wind up **** (like any game involving the Dallas Mavericks). But the quality of play in college simply isnt very good anymore, even at the higher levels. I wonder how anyone can enjoy watching particular players play then stop watching them once they go on to play in the pros?

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I watch both college and pro hoops and I dont hate college and some NBA matchups wind up **** (like any game involving the Dallas Mavericks). But the quality of play in college simply isnt very good anymore, even at the higher levels. I wonder how anyone can enjoy watching particular players play then stop watching them once they go on to play in the pros?

Quality of play, I agree, isnt even close to what it use to be. Competitiveness is but the players as a whole arent nearly as good. That part is impossible to debate.

I watch a ton of hoops as well. One NBA team I have enjoyed watching lately is the Thunder believe it or not. I watched them the first week of the season and I would have bet that they were the worst team in the league. Things have changed. They are young and learning to play together and win and Durant is developing into a really fine player along with Westbrook and Green. check them out if you havent seen them play. They play hard most every night.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I think this is very true. The myth that the NBA guys aren't playing hard is way off. People think a guy like Chris Bosh is not playing hard or Michael Beasley is not playing hard because of their facial expressions or the smoothness they play with. Let me assure you that you can't go for 22 and 10 a night in the NBA if you aren't playing hard. It's impossible. They are playing as hard as the college guys, if not harder. The main reason is because they still have pride. Nobody wants to get embarrassed out there on national tv. The thing is these guys are SO GOOD that they sometimes make the difficult look easy. But they are playing hard.

The analogy to a watered down grade one race is a good one. I have that argument all the time. We might see some close, exciting games during the year. A game like UNC vs. Duke may include five or more future NBA players and be high in quality. But it's NOTHING like an NBA game. The quality of play in the NBA is light years beyond anything you will ever see in a college game. Dick Vitale did an NBA game the other night and he couldn't be more clear in his assessment that the NBA game is much better quality wise.

You are also correct when it comes to talking about the influence coaches have. There are some exceptions, guys like Coach K, Roy Williams, Calhoun, Izzo, and a few others. But most of these guys have little influence when they have a star player. They know for the most part that the star will be one and done and if there's any chance of trying to get them back for a second or third year, they coddle to them like crazy. O.J. Mayo had free reign at USC. Kevin Durant didn't even attend school in the second semester at Texas. Don't believe all that rah rah, playing for my school stuff. It's probably true at Siena or Vermont or Penn...but it's not true at the big time schools. Those guy are playing mostly to showcase their games for the NBA or Europe.

I agree with much of what you say here. A couple of interesting things. You assure me that a guy that puts up 22 and 10 a night is playing hard. I Agree. There is only ONE guy in the NBA doing that though and thats Al Jefferson and I havent heard anyone ever accuse that guy of not playing hard.

You can't look at just stats to determine effort. Effort is more intangible. Effort is going to show more on the defensive end. Thats still hard to quantify though because points allowed on defense is more a reflection of tempo and style of play than effort.

Pros often do give a lot of effort but the other side of your argument would be that the pros dont have to put out as much effort to produce a decent game. Certainly not saying that is always the case but it is a valid argument.

Pro crowds are nowhere near as crazy and as influential as college crowds. Like it or not, crowd intensity can have a major impact on players. That does effect effort especially on the defensive end.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

I agree with much of what you say here. A couple of interesting things. You assure me that a guy that puts up 22 and 10 a night is playing hard. I Agree. There is only ONE guy in the NBA doing that though and thats Al Jefferson and I havent heard anyone ever accuse that guy of not playing hard.

You can't look at just stats to determine effort. Effort is more intangible. Effort is going to show more on the defensive end. Thats still hard to quantify though because points allowed on defense is more a reflection of tempo and style of play than effort.

Pros often do give a lot of effort but the other side of your argument would be that the pros dont have to put out as much effort to produce a decent game. Certainly not saying that is always the case but it is a valid argument.

Pro crowds are nowhere near as crazy and as influential as college crowds. Like it or not, crowd intensity can have a major impact on players. That does effect effort especially on the defensive end.

I didn't mean exactly 22 and 10. I was just saying a big time producer. It could be 25-8 or 19-12. Or even 27-7-7.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I didn't mean exactly 22 and 10. I was just saying a big time producer. It could be 25-8 or 19-12. Or even 27-7-7.

Vince Carter plays hard every night?

I know what you are saying.