Swale....Winning Two Legs of The Triple Crown

[zippyneedsawin]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Riva Ridge won the Derby and Belmont, but bombed in the Preakness. Mainly because he detested an off track, and Pimlico was sloppy that day.

Thunder Gulch is another. He was 3rd in the Preakness to his own stablemate, but basically had no excuses. His Belmont was a pretty weak affair.

Little Current won both the Preakness and the Belmont by 7 lengths each, coming from way out of it. I'm pretty sure he was in the Derby, too, but obviously his late kick wasn't enough.

Hansel also took the last 2 legs (at generous odds each time, despite being Derby favorite). Not sure what happened in the Derby (he was 10th), although his last two preps (the Jim Beam and Lexington) were monstrous efforts, so perhaps he was over-the-top. That doesn't make much sense though when he comes right back 2 weeks later and beats the same horses by 7 lengths.

Little Current finished 5th... in a 23 HORSE FIELD!!

http://www.kentuckyderby.com/2005/de...ears/1974.html

[Danzig]

and i was incorrect in memory, swale finished seventh in the preakness. and imo would hold more than a 'slight' edge over big brown.

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by Danzig

and i was incorrect in memory, swale finished seventh in the preakness. and imo would hold more than a 'slight' edge over big brown.

How do you figure more than slight. They both won the FL Derby, they both won two legs of the TC. Swale raced more as a two year old. Swale was not alive to race post post Belmont. Please show me a compelling stat that shows he has more than slight edge.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

How do you figure more than slight. They both won the FL Derby, they both won two legs of the TC. Swale raced more as a two year old. Swale was not alive to race post post Belmont. Please show me a compelling stat that shows he has more than slight edge.

perhaps you answered your own question-altho to say only that 'swale raced more as a two year old' doesn't really give him much credit. he did far more than just race more at two. swale won in how many stakes at two? how many before the fla derby? btw that was big browns first stakes score. how many did he win pre-kentucky deby?- i believe big brown won one. believe it or not roller, there's far, far more to racing then the kentucky derby. and swale won the belmont, remind me how big brown did in that race again?

swale wasn't a great horse either, his life was cut short so we'll never know, and he could be inconsistent. but i'd give him more than a 'slight' edge over big brown, just as i'd give swales peers more than a slight edge over BBs competition.

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by Danzig

perhaps you answered your own question-altho to say only that 'swale raced more as a two year old' doesn't really give him much credit. he did far more than just race more at two. swale won in how many stakes at two? how many before the fla derby? btw that was big browns first stakes score. how many did he win pre-kentucky deby?- i believe big brown won one. believe it or not roller, there's far, far more to racing then the kentucky derby. and swale won the belmont, remind me how big brown did in that race again?

swale wasn't a great horse either, his life was cut short so we'll never know, and he could be inconsistent. but i'd give him more than a 'slight' edge over big brown, just as i'd give swales peers more than a slight edge over BBs competition.

To refresh your memory about the Belmont, Big Brown didn't fully race. It was speculated there was a myriad of problems. So I guess we will never know. I do know that he lef Da'Tara two zip codes away in the FL Derby so there is no reason to think in a month and half that Da'Tara completely turned the tables on Big Brown. Of course in the Derby and Preakness Big Brown was very impressive.

You may very well be right about Swale being more than slight. At the same time, I see many arguments on here about comparing horses who have never run against each other, from different eras, and how they compare. So I guess I will continue to question an argument like this when there is a real way to make that comparison seem credible.

But your experience in this field makes me take notice of your posts and I respect what you offer so I can learn from it. I appreciate that you take time to respond to my posts.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

To refresh your memory about the Belmont, Big Brown didn't fully race. It was speculated there was a myriad of problems. So I guess we will never know. I do know that he lef Da'Tara two zip codes away in the FL Derby so there is no reason to think in a month and half that Da'Tara completely turned the tables on Big Brown. Of course in the Derby and Preakness Big Brown was very impressive.

You may very well be right about Swale being more than slight. At the same time, I see many arguments on here about comparing horses who have never run against each other, from different eras, and how they compare. So I guess I will continue to question an argument like this when there is a real way to make that comparison seem credible.

But your experience in this field makes me take notice of your posts and I respect what you offer so I can learn from it. I appreciate that you take time to respond to my posts.

i know what happened in the belmont this year. and i've said before that i can't help but wonder what may have happened had kent ridden the horse in new york rather than freak out when the horse didn't take off like he felt was usual. they went over that horse with a fine toothed comb, and found nothing-other than the hoof of course, which everyone knew of beforehand, and that they assured everyone was not a problem. if the horse had any other problems, they'd have found them. his races subsequent to the belmont also showed that he didn't have issues, other than not being head and shoulders the best like some thought he was after fla and ky. maybe just a head better-but still better.

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by zippyneedsawin

Little Current finished 5th... in a 23 HORSE FIELD!!

http://www.kentuckyderby.com/2005/de...ears/1974.html

Wow there was horse in that Derby that finished 17th named Triple Crown. Yikes. I see that was Canonade's Derby. What happened to him the rest of his 3 year old career?

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

Wow there was horse in that Derby that finished 17th named Triple Crown. Yikes. I see that was Canonade's Derby. What happened to him the rest of his 3 year old career?

I remember Triple Crown - I think I have a photo of him in the paddock at Santa Anita somewhere in the basement. He was a big golden chestnut by Hawaii who raced in California early on in his classic preparation. Won the San Vicente (G3, 7f) and the San Jacinto (G2, 8f) and was third in the San Felipe H (G2- 8.5f) to Aloha Mood, then went East to finish second a division of in the Wood Memorial (G1-9f) to Flip Sal (who broke down in the Derby). I don't remember seeing him again after the Derby; he went to stud in 1975, according to my Stallion Registers, but had little success.

1974 was a very confused year for 3yos, with lots of different prep winners, and even double classic winner Little Current didn't appear to be anything special. The top 10 3yos in the Blood-Horse Handicap for 3yos were: Little Current, Agitate, Stonewalk, Cannonade, Holding Pattern (the Travers winner; the filly Chris Evert was third), Lightning Mandate, Judger, Within Hail (a turfer), Bushongo, and Stardust Mel. Some good, solid racehorses in there, but no immortals.

Triple Crown was the last foal of a mare called Belle Jeep, a daughter of War Jeep (he by War Admiral). Among her earlier foals were champion 2yo Jewel's Reward, Ky Jockey Club S winner Evasive Action, SW Lord Jeep, and SP Guillemot, who ran third in the Irish Derby (G1).

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

I remember Triple Crown - I think I have a photo of him in the paddock at Santa Anita somewhere in the basement. He was a big golden chestnut by Hawaii who raced in California early on in his classic preparation. Won the San Vicente (G3, 7f) and the San Jacinto (G2, 8f) and was third in the San Felipe H (G2- 8.5f) to Aloha Mood, then went East to finish second a division of in the Wood Memorial (G1-9f) to Flip Sal (who broke down in the Derby). I don't remember seeing him again after the Derby; he went to stud in 1975, according to my Stallion Registers, but had little success.

1974 was a very confused year for 3yos, with lots of different prep winners, and even double classic winner Little Current didn't appear to be anything special. The top 10 3yos in the Blood-Horse Handicap for 3yos were: Little Current, Agitate, Stonewalk, Cannonade, Holding Pattern (the Travers winner; the filly Chris Evert was third), Lightning Mandate, Judger, Within Hail (a turfer), Bushongo, and Stardust Mel. Some good, solid racehorses in there, but no immortals.

Triple Crown was the last foal of a mare called Belle Jeep, a daughter of War Jeep (he by War Admiral). Among her earlier foals were champion 2yo Jewel's Reward, Ky Jockey Club S winner Evasive Action, SW Lord Jeep, and SP Guillemot, who ran third in the Irish Derby (G1).

Thank you! When I read this, I kind of wish I had been around in the 70s. There were three TC winners? A 23 horse field in the Preakness? Just wish I could have seen what it was like back then compared to now.

[Betsy]

Woody was very high on Swale - if I recall, it really broke him up to lose him. Earlier in his career, he was in the long shadow of Devil's Bag and he never really overcame his inconsistency (from what I can tell - I only remember his death, not his races). Of course, maturity might have taken care of that. It was a devastating blow to Claiborne.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Betsy

Woody was very high on Swale - if I recall, it really broke him up to lose him. Earlier in his career, he was in the long shadow of Devil's Bag and he never really overcame his inconsistency (from what I can tell - I only remember his death, not his races). Of course, maturity might have taken care of that. It was a devastating blow to Claiborne.

yeah, he was high on him. swale was very inconsistent, seemed every time he ran a good race, he'd follow it with a bit of a clunker. but he actually only finished off the board one time, in the preakness. but when he was on, he was on. and of course claiborne was very upset about losing him, he was the farms first ever derby winner. he's buried there in the same cemetary with secretariat and nasrullah.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

Thank you! When I read this, I kind of wish I had been around in the 70s. There were three TC winners? A 23 horse field in the Preakness? Just wish I could have seen what it was like back then compared to now.

I'm confused.....you didn't know there were three TC winners in the 1970s?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I'm confused.....you didn't know there were three TC winners in the 1970s?

i wonder if he knows how many there were in the 60's and 80's?

[Revidere]

To me a truly underrated horse that fell into the sandwich category (Derby/Belmont) was Bold Forbes. He broke two stakes records (Bay Shore and Wood Memorial) on the way to the Derby, and at the time he won in Louisville, he had the fastest wire to wire and 5th fastest time overall. Even though he lost the Preakness, his race was remarkable. He literally tore off his right hind leaving the gate and pan-fried Honest Pleasure in 1:09 flat for six furlongs (also a track record at the time). Even with that , he was beaten only four lengths and then came back to win the Belmont in one of the great training and riding feats in racing history. I always thought that if he was owned by racing blueblood (see old, crusty, establishment money)he would have been looked at more favorably.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Revidere

To me a truly underrated horse that fell into the sandwich category (Derby/Belmont) was Bold Forbes. He broke two stakes records (Bay Shore and Wood Memorial) on the way to the Derby, and at the time he won in Louisville, he had the fastest wire to wire and 5th fastest time overall. Even though he lost the Preakness, his race was remarkable. He literally tore off his right hind leaving the gate and pan-fried Honest Pleasure in 1:09 flat for six furlongs (also a track record at the time). Even with that , he was beaten only four lengths and then came back to win the Belmont in one of the great training and riding feats in racing history. I always thought that if he was owned by racing blueblood (see old, crusty, establishment money)he would have been looked at more favorably.

He was a really neat horse and Cordero's ride in the Belmont was an all-timer. I was actually at Aqueduct for his win in the Wood.

Who beat him in the Vosburgh?

[Bystander]

There's actually a nice little book by Swale's former groom Michael Klein, titled Track Conditions. It's a memoir, not sure if it's still in print, but an interesting read nonetheless.

[Revidere]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

He was a really neat horse and Cordero's ride in the Belmont was an all-timer. I was actually at Aqueduct for his win in the Wood.

Who beat him in the Vosburgh?

My Juliet. It's Freezing was moved up as Bold Forbes was DQ'd. Very depressing day. If he won that day, he would have been considered for a sprinting Eclipse as well as 3YO. Turns out he ripped off his quarter leaving the gate and finished on 3 legs.

[Linny]

I haven't waded thorugh this whole thread (because comparing Big Brown to Swale is like comparing bowling balls to garden hoses. You could try, but why?) but would add that Swale tended to follow a good race/bad race pattern and was true to that form in the Triple Crown.
As for Woody, I can't question his skills, he was a master. Fast works right before a race were quite common then and fast works at all are rare now.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Linny

I haven't waded thorugh this whole thread (because comparing Big Brown to Swale is like comparing bowling balls to garden hoses. You could try, but why?) but would add that Swale tended to follow a good race/bad race pattern and was true to that form in the Triple Crown.
As for Woody, I can't question his skills, he was a master. Fast works right before a race were quite common then and fast works at all are rare now.

I'm glad somebody commented on the post questioning the training skills of Woody Stephens. That was a highlight for me.

Yeah.....he really sucked. He's far and away the luckiest trainer to ever win five straight Belmonts.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Linny

I haven't waded thorugh this whole thread (because comparing Big Brown to Swale is like comparing bowling balls to garden hoses. You could try, but why?) but would add that Swale tended to follow a good race/bad race pattern and was true to that form in the Triple Crown.
As for Woody, I can't question his skills, he was a master. Fast works right before a race were quite common then and fast works at all are rare now.

Wasn't the Preakness the only time he was off the board?