Big Brown - Overrated?

[King Glorious]

For the last five years only, I'd go with:

3yo's only, non-sprinters

1-Smarty Jones
2-Bernardini
3-Curlin
4-Big Brown
5-Lion Heart
6-Afleet Alex
7-Barbaro
8-Street Sense
9-Flower Alley
10-Birdstone

[blackthroatedwind]

Lion Heart?

Oy vey.

[Payson Dave]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Lion Heart?

Oy vey.

my yiddish is poor....is "oy vey" kinda like "oh my"?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Lion Heart?

Oy vey.

I already can invision all of the responses to that. I wish he hadn't broken down in the Travers because after that half in 49 and change, I have no doubt he would have lasted the 10f and then this conversation would be a whole lot different if he was a Haskell/Travers winner and a Derby runner-up.

[MLC]

No Invasor?

[MLC]

Sorry, King, I just noticed "3 years old only".

[justindew]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

For the last five years only, I'd go with:

3yo's only, non-sprinters

1-Smarty Jones
2-Bernardini
3-Curlin
4-Big Brown
5-Lion Heart
6-Afleet Alex
7-Barbaro
8-Street Sense
9-Flower Alley
10-Birdstone

Making this list without Casino Drive is criminal.

If we go back eight years, I would like to see Fusaichi Pegasus and Sunday Break get their props.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Sunday Break probably isn't one of the 1,800 best Japanese bred horses to race in the last eight years... so he was a fairly clever choice.

However, Fu Peg was a KEE July Select sales topper - raced only in America - and his lone connection with Japan was his owner. Poor choice. Fusaichi Samurai might have been better.

Ski Captain being the most underrated dirt horse to race in America in the 90's might have been better played.

[justindew]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Sunday Break probably isn't one of the 1,800 best Japanese bred horses to race in the last eight years... so he was a fairly clever choice.

However, Fu Peg was a KEE July Select sales topper - raced only in America - and his lone connection with Japan was his owner. Poor choice. Fusaichi Samurai might have been better.

Ski Captain being the most underrated dirt horse to race in America in the 90's might have been better played.

Sunday Break placed in the Grade I Wood Menorial and the Grade I Belmont.

Had Drysdale not treated him with kid gloves, he would have been more fit for the Wood, would have made the KY Derby field, and would have run down War Emblem.





Lest anyone think I am serious, I'm not. It's sad that I need to say this.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

For the last five years only, I'd go with:

3yo's only, non-sprinters

1-Smarty Jones
2-Bernardini
3-Curlin
4-Big Brown
5-Lion Heart
6-Afleet Alex
7-Barbaro
8-Street Sense
9-Flower Alley
10-Birdstone

On Sesame Street they used to play a game called "One of these things is not like the other." I played it with your list and came up with a couple of interesting tidbits. You have two horses who actually beat older horses in their 3YO campaigns and one did it twice. You have neither of them on top. I'm not even Jewish but oy vey.

Maybe I just wasn't much of a Smarty Jones guy. I have a hard time putting him ahead of #s 2-8 on your list save Lion Heart and remember that he was only 1-1 against Birdstone.

NT

[ELA]

The naysayers, even if Big Brown wins the Triple Crown, will still continue to say he's overrated. He could win the Belmont by a margain equal to Secretariat, and some, perhaps many, will still call him overrated.

Eric

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by ELA

The naysayers, even if Big Brown wins the Triple Crown, will still continue to say he's overrated. He could win the Belmont by a margain equal to Secretariat, and some, perhaps many, will still call him overrated.

Eric

This is the kind of sentiment that I just don't understand. Do we really all have to be either worshipers or naysayers? I, for one, am not ready to call this horse one of the all-time greats.
But he is certainly very good, and I wouldn't be at all shocked if he does give us a "wow" performance in the Belmont.
At this point, there is simply no doubt that he is overrated. But that doesn't mean that he isn't CAPABLE of proving his most ardent supporters correct in the Belmont.

[sdjcom]

Big Brown Is Not Overated If You Compare Him To 3 Yr Olds. He Is 3 You Know. We Can't Compare Him Yet To Curlin And The Likes Because He Has Only Raced 5 Times. Curlin Is 4 Now And More Matured Get Big A Chance To Do This.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by sdjcom

Big Brown Is Not Overated If You Compare Him To 3 Yr Olds. He Is 3 You Know. We Can't Compare Him Yet To Curlin And The Likes Because He Has Only Raced 5 Times. Curlin Is 4 Now And More Matured Get Big A Chance To Do This.

and we lost better than honour?

[ELA]

Originally Posted by miraja2

This is the kind of sentiment that I just don't understand. Do we really all have to be either worshipers or naysayers? I, for one, am not ready to call this horse one of the all-time greats.
But he is certainly very good, and I wouldn't be at all shocked if he does give us a "wow" performance in the Belmont.
At this point, there is simply no doubt that he is overrated. But that doesn't mean that he isn't CAPABLE of proving his most ardent supporters correct in the Belmont.

No, all don't have to be one or the other. My own opinion aside, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I enjoy reading all of them. However, be that as it may, I completely disagree with you on the "there is simply no doubt" -- although I'll agree with this part . . . that's your opinion. LOL.

My point is that I think regardless of what this horse does, I think he will always have critics -- and that's the interesting part. In part, it might be due to the horse himself, perhaps the weakness of the crop as one example. However, I think it's become far more about the trainer and the connections. That won't go away.

Eric

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by ELA

The naysayers, even if Big Brown wins the Triple Crown, will still continue to say he's overrated. He could win the Belmont by a margain equal to Secretariat, and some, perhaps many, will still call him overrated.

Eric

And the goo-goos, even if Big Brown were to lose in the Belmont, would still maintain that he is one of the greats. He could lose by the length of the stretch and many would no doubt offer up one excuse or another.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

And the goo-goos, even if Big Brown were to lose in the Belmont, would still maintain that he is one of the greats. He could lose by the length of the stretch and many would no doubt offer up one excuse or another.

Excellent point.

Eric

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

On Sesame Street they used to play a game called "One of these things is not like the other." I played it with your list and came up with a couple of interesting tidbits. You have two horses who actually beat older horses in their 3YO campaigns and one did it twice. You have neither of them on top. I'm not even Jewish but oy vey.

Maybe I just wasn't much of a Smarty Jones guy. I have a hard time putting him ahead of #s 2-8 on your list save Lion Heart and remember that he was only 1-1 against Birdstone.

NT

So then, in your mind beating a horse that's older means more than beating a 3yo that's better than the older horse? I mean, Easy Goer beat older in the Whitney, Woodward, and JCGC......so was he better than Sunday Silence, who only beat older once? If El Gato Malo beats some of these pathetic older horses out here in CA in the Goodwood, should that elevate him over Big Brown as champion 3yo if BB wins the TC and then retires? Or what about if War Pass returns and beats BB in the Travers? Would that mean that El Gato Malo is better than War Pass? Shouldn't beating the best horses mean more than beating the oldest ones? Beating older horses doesn't mean much to me if the older horses aren't any good.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

So then, in your mind beating a horse that's older means more than beating a 3yo that's better than the older horse? I mean, Easy Goer beat older in the Whitney, Woodward, and JCGC......so was he better than Sunday Silence, who only beat older once? If El Gato Malo beats some of these pathetic older horses out here in CA in the Goodwood, should that elevate him over Big Brown as champion 3yo if BB wins the TC and then retires? Or what about if War Pass returns and beats BB in the Travers? Would that mean that El Gato Malo is better than War Pass? Shouldn't beating the best horses mean more than beating the oldest ones? Beating older horses doesn't mean much to me if the older horses aren't any good.

Clearly you don't understand my point. If you're not giving a 3YO extra credit for beating older horses in their 3YO season then you are presenting a very skewed set of criteria.

Once again you conveniently skirted around the fact that Curlin beat older horses twice, and they happened to be the best older horses that were available. Maybe not the best handicap division, but still older horses.

I could never agree with putting a horse like Smarty Jones ahead of Curlin in terms of respective 3YO campaigns.

NT

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

I could never agree with putting a horse like Smarty Jones ahead of Curlin in terms of respective 3YO campaigns.

NT

No sane person could.