Beyer still not sold on Big Brown

[CSC]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Casino Drive is the very antithesis of a " wise guy " horse.

At this point I would be happy if Big Brown just wins the Triple Crown, either way I agree with what you said earlier. It won't mean he's a greater horse if he does it, it just means he is much better than his 3 yr old competition is. I think we will see just how good he is if and when we see him line up against Curlin. I think the blinders will finally be open after we see how he fares against real racehorses.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by CSC

At this point I would be happy if Big Brown just wins the Triple Crown, either way I agree with what you said earlier. It won't mean he's a greater horse if he does it, it just means he is much better than his 3 yr old competition is. I think we will see just how good he is if and when we see him line up against Curlin. I think the blinders will finally be open after we see how he fares against real racehorses.

i seriously doubt he faces curlin, or any other horse after the belmont. except mares that is...

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i seriously doubt he faces curlin, or any other horse after the belmont. except mares that is...

I think the public would want it, or certainly demand it. I think it would tarnish whatever legacy he wants in the future if he doesn't. Alot has already been made of how mediocre this crop is, the colt atleast deserves a chance to dispel that notion.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by CSC

I think the public would want it, or certainly demand it. I think it would tarnish whatever legacy he wants in the future if he doesn't. Alot has already been made of how mediocre this crop is, the colt atleast deserves a chance to dispel that notion.

It doesn't really matter what the public wants or demands. That's a debate for another time, but as far as reality, it doesn't matter -- not to the owner or the farm. As far as a legacy, it will only tarnish in the eyes of the public or the fan -- which again doesn't matter and is certainly not a concern of the owners, farm, breeder, etc. If the legacy is in the eye of the beholder -- the important eye is not the fan's, but the breeders, mare owners, people who are candidates to send mares, etc.

If the public continues to expect owners to manage their horses to the public's expectation, then the public will continue to be dissappointed.

Eric

[blackthroatedwind]

If he retires after the Belmont I can only hope his foals end up being as spectacular as the Smarmy Jones's are reported to be.

And, oh yeah, Smarmy was one horse I am actually confident Big Brown could have handled. He would have beaten Afleet Alex as well.

Dynever, however, would have crushed him like a grape.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Dynever, however, would have crushed him like a grape.

Only if there was another horse in the race that could finish first.

[zippyneedsawin]

Not to beat a dead horse here (sorry for the analogy), but who exactly has Casino Drive beaten that we're supposed to be impressed with (as compared to Big Brown)? A bunch of Japanese-bred maidens and a weak Peter Pan field consisting of Mint Lane, Ready's Echo, Golden Spikes, Cosmic, Spark Candle, Tomcito, Deputyville and Fast Talking. I'd say CD is making a big class jump in the Belmont.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by ELA

It doesn't really matter what the public wants or demands. That's a debate for another time, but as far as reality, it doesn't matter -- not to the owner or the farm. As far as a legacy, it will only tarnish in the eyes of the public or the fan -- which again doesn't matter and is certainly not a concern of the owners, farm, breeder, etc. If the legacy is in the eye of the beholder -- the important eye is not the fan's, but the breeders, mare owners, people who are candidates to send mares, etc.

If the public continues to expect owners to manage their horses to the public's expectation, then the public will continue to be dissappointed.

Eric

This is a debate for another time...I don't begrudge owners for trying to maximize their investments; however I guess I miss the days of having owners like Allen Paulson. A Sportsman that sold the game, surely if he retired Cigar after the BC in 1995, I doubt many young fans at that time would have gotten into this game, and that is the dilema I believe. There will always be core bettors that play the game but will newspapers and the media continue to pay attention if the game loses more fans. Sorry I kind of said more than I perhaps wanted to...that's another topic all together.

[sumitas]

BB is no Ghostzapper.

http://www.adenastallions.com/stalli...id=Ghostzapper

[ELA]

Originally Posted by CSC

This is a debate for another time...I don't begrudge owners for trying to maximize their investments; however I guess I miss the days of having owners like Allen Paulson. A Sportsman that sold the game, surely if he retired Cigar after the BC in 1995, I doubt many young fans at that time would have gotten into this game, and that is the dilema I believe. There will always be core bettors that play the game but will newspapers and the media continue to pay attention if the game loses more fans. Sorry I kind of said more than I perhaps wanted to...that's another topic all together.

I completely understand your point, and I agree. However, I am also very clear on and aware of reality. Rather than debate who is and how a sportsmen would act, what I see is a very quick trigger pulled when an owner "disappoints" the public. It's become the common reaction, however, it also often comes from people who just don't understand the business. I hear people "count other people's money" and talk about a horse who could breed 100 mares at $75k and that's $15m in the first two years at stud. I've read this nonsense more than once.

Another example is James Tafel and Street Sense. As soon as he decided not to run in the Belmont, the gates of criticism burst wide open. In my opinion that was foolishness. Sure, different people have a different definition, but to critcize Tafel and say he's not a sportsmen -- that's BS.

Eric

[CSC]

Originally Posted by ELA

I completely understand your point, and I agree. However, I am also very clear on and aware of reality. Rather than debate who is and how a sportsmen would act, what I see is a very quick trigger pulled when an owner "disappoints" the public. It's become the common reaction, however, it also often comes from people who just don't understand the business. I hear people "count other people's money" and talk about a horse who could breed 100 mares at $75k and that's $15m in the first two years at stud. I've read this nonsense more than once.

Another example is James Tafel and Street Sense. As soon as he decided not to run in the Belmont, the gates of criticism burst wide open. In my opinion that was foolishness. Sure, different people have a different definition, but to critcize Tafel and say he's not a sportsmen -- that's BS.

Eric

Perhaps we should examine the breeding industry as a whole then, 100K for Big Brown is an awful lot money for a debut sire when you look at his pedigree and the competition he has faced thus far. Once again I don't begrudge the owners at all, I understand what you said. I just wish there were more owners like Paulson.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by ELA

I completely understand your point, and I agree. However, I am also very clear on and aware of reality. Rather than debate who is and how a sportsmen would act, what I see is a very quick trigger pulled when an owner "disappoints" the public. It's become the common reaction, however, it also often comes from people who just don't understand the business. I hear people "count other people's money" and talk about a horse who could breed 100 mares at $75k and that's $15m in the first two years at stud. I've read this nonsense more than once.

Another example is James Tafel and Street Sense. As soon as he decided not to run in the Belmont, the gates of criticism burst wide open. In my opinion that was foolishness. Sure, different people have a different definition, but to critcize Tafel and say he's not a sportsmen -- that's BS.

Eric

Eric, as I remember, right after Street Sense lost the Preakness, Nafzger was asked about the Belmont and his response was, "What's the point?" I think Nafzger is a terrific trainer, and I never get tired of that clip of him with Frances Gentner after Unbridled won the Derby, but as a racing fan, Street Sense fan, (and NYer), I felt a little kicked in the teeth about the Belmont. I understand racing owners and trainers have to be half sportsmen and half investment portfolio managers, because of breeding values being so much higher than racing values, but, as a result, racing fans will be disappointed when a race is skipped because it won't help breeding value, and as this board shows, racing fans tend not to be quiet about voicing displeasure. (Which is true of all sports fans, actually. Maybe not tennis. At least not during the game. Or golf. I don't think I recall anyone yelling, "You suck!" at the Masters. That would be pretty hilarious, actually...)

On the other hand, had Street Sense gone into the Belmont, Rags to Riches would not have, and that duel down the stretch was pretty awesome to watch. Maybe it would have been a better race with SS in it, but I was pretty happy with it as it was.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by CSC

I think the public would want it, or certainly demand it. I think it would tarnish whatever legacy he wants in the future if he doesn't. Alot has already been made of how mediocre this crop is, the colt atleast deserves a chance to dispel that notion.

legacy? what legacy? he's already made his legacy as far as ieah is concerned. they wanted 50 million for their newest brainchild, and he's put them a long way towards making it. if he wins the belmont, he will be too valuable to ieah and three chimneys to run again. smarty was mentioned above, we all know what his last race was....
and if big brown loses, he'll still retire-as no one would want to risk a second loss, to curlin or anyone else. have to protect that potential 100k stud fee. i'll be absolutely shocked and amazed if that horse runs again after his race in three weeks. he'll either go out 5-1, or 6-0, but go out he will.

as for the public, unless they can afford a share in big brown, ieah and three chimneys won't care what they think.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Danzig

legacy? what legacy? he's already made his legacy as far as ieah is concerned. they wanted 50 million for their newest brainchild, and he's put them a long way towards making it. if he wins the belmont, he will be too valuable to ieah and three chimneys to run again. smarty was mentioned above, we all know what his last race was....
and if big brown loses, he'll still retire-as no one would want to risk a second loss, to curlin or anyone else. have to protect that potential 100k stud fee. i'll be absolutely shocked and amazed if that horse runs again after his race in three weeks. he'll either go out 5-1, or 6-0, but go out he will.

as for the public, unless they can afford a share in big brown, ieah and three chimneys won't care what they think.

I'd say he sticks around for the Travers and or Haskel, as Point Given did...and maybe <cough> retire due to injury.

And yeah maybe he can become just as ordinary a sire as Point Given became as well.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by CSC

I'd say he sticks around for the Travers and or Haskel, as Point Given did...and maybe <cough> retire due to injury.

And yeah maybe he can become just as ordinary a sire as Point Given became as well.

i think point given will turn out to be a better sire than big brown.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i think point given will turn out to be a better sire than big brown.

That's not a ringing endorsement, if we use Point Given as an example and you can use Monarchos also from the same year if you want. Winning the triple crown events does not necessarily mean you are going to be a success in the breeding shed. Right now you'd have to say Street Cry is the best sire from that crop with a derby winner to his name already. One look at the 2007 Top Sires list in North America and it is quite revealing.