Art Wilson: Cali perspective (with Shirreffs, Stute)

[sumitas]

Originally Posted by Kasept

http://www2.whittierdailynews.com/sports/ci_9200513

John Shirreffs, a harsh critic of the synthetic surfaces, claims the reduction in catastrophic breakdowns during the afternoons is more than offset by the casualties during morning workouts. "And the horses that get hurt in the morning are the promising young horses," he said.

Said Melvin Stute: "I've had nine horses put down in 40 years, and five of them have been since the synthetics."

These are observations without a valid statistical sample to substantiate their personal conclusions.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by sumitas

These are observations without a valid statistical sample to substantiate their personal conclusions.

It's called the Sumitas method.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

It's called the Sumitas method.

OOOOOOOOOO

[sumitas]

It's called legitimate scientific data. You all and Shirreffs prefer the old Greek method of who yells the loudest is right.

WRONG

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by sumitas

It's called legitimate scientific data. You all and Shirreffs prefer the old Greek method of who yells the loudest is right.

WRONG

Really? So you're saying that John Shirreffs is famous for shouting down those with differing opinions? That's the way you think he's approached this discussion?

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Really? So you're saying that John Shirreffs is famous for shouting down those with differing opinions? That's the way you think he's approached this discussion?

Steve, you have no basis to ask those questions of Sumitas unless you can find a scientist like Jack Knowlton to say that Shirreffs is maybe wrong.

[sumitas]

In some ways yes. And Moss as well in Cali has brought his peresonal track bias to the soap box level as well...imo.

I'd like to thank the new thoughtful menbers of the board for sharing their insights. The vast majority on this board are not interested in discussion, just shouting down and ridiculing those they disagree with. Kind of like Moss and Shirriffs.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by sumitas

In some ways yes. And Moss as well in Cali has brought his presonal track bias to the soap box level as we...imo.

His bias is backed up by millions upons millions sopent in the business. He's earned the right to express the opinion he's formulated.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by sumitas

In some ways yes. And Moss as well in Cali has brought his peresonal track bias to the soap box level as well...imo.

I'd like to thank the new thoughtful menbers of the board for sharing their insights. The vast majority on this board are not interested in discussion, just shouting down and ridiculing those they disagree with. Kind of like Moss and Shirriffs.

You have no idea what you're talking about in reference to Jerry Moss and John Shirreffs. NONE.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by sumitas

It's called legitimate scientific data. You all and Shirreffs prefer the old Greek method of who yells the loudest is right.

WRONG

irony, thy name is sumitas.

[Linny]

I was at the Wood Memorial and War Pass, Spring at Last and Tater Tutt all got hurt. More may have. None of them were vanned off and I doubt that any of them would show up on an injury report.

[kgar311]

Originally Posted by sumitas

These are observations without a valid statistical sample to substantiate their personal conclusions.

Sumitas has some nice "observations" of his own

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by sumitas

These are observations without a valid statistical sample to substantiate their personal conclusions.

THESE ARE TRAINERS WITH REAL HORSES... Mel Stute is saying that he's had as many horses break down in 2 years as he did in the previous 38. Shirreffs is saying his young horses are getting hurt. What other kind of observation is necessary from their perspective?

Honestly.. your approach to this makes any conversation impossible and virtually worthless. I won't bother with another response. Everyone else was tired of the nonsense from you and now I am as well.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by Kasept

I won't bother with another response.

You get one more and then I am out of smiles or whatever they are called

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Scav

I'm through now with it. I have a show to put together yet.

[sumitas]

Data gathering is in process and as Linny stated, many injuries are never reported because they are detected after a race or during a workout. I'm waiting for comprehensive data, although the rate for breakdowns has been quantified as lower on synth races than dirt. That's a start.

The industry is moving very slowly for full reporting on all on track injuries regardless of work outs or races. NJ has a great model where they can test for drugs anywhere, anyplace, anytime. Comprehensive data is needed and many fight that, of course. They've got the stakes purses cornered, they're making all the money now.

[Cannon Shell]

I am under no obligation to report injuries nor will I report them. For one, the fear of litigation if an "injured" horse were to ever breakdown in the future, I dont want ammunition for a creative laywer. Secondly it is no ones business except mine and the horses owner what the status of my horses are until they are entered in a race. Then they can perform any kind of check up or examination that they want. If they pass out of competition testing for illegal drugs I will willingly participate.

[ShadowRoll]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I am under no obligation to report injuries nor will I report them. For one, the fear of litigation if an "injured" horse were to ever breakdown in the future, I dont want ammunition for a creative laywer. Secondly it is no ones business except mine and the horses owner what the status of my horses are until they are entered in a race. Then they can perform any kind of check up or examination that they want. If they pass out of competition testing for illegal drugs I will willingly participate.

WHAT??? YOU'RE HIDING INJURIES??? Hmmm...I need to make a note of that for future litigation purposes. (That creative enough for you?)

[Riot]

Originally Posted by ShadowRoll

WHAT??? YOU'RE HIDING INJURIES??? Hmmm...I need to make a note of that for future litigation purposes. (That creative enough for you?)

I think I saw Chuck wearing a band-aid this morning .... maybe.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by ShadowRoll

WHAT??? YOU'RE HIDING INJURIES??? Hmmm...I need to make a note of that for future litigation purposes. (That creative enough for you?)

pretty much