Cigar's maiden win...

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by GPK

a serious question.

was there a reason ever given for running all those races on turf?

At that time of year in CA (early summer), the focus for the 3yo division switches to the turf. Aside from the Swaps Stakes in July, which his connections were unlikely to point for off a 6f maiden win, the next graded stakes on dirt for 3yos in CA was the Laz Barrera in late November. Being a highly touted horse prior to his career debut and given his turf pedigree, it would seem possible that his connections thought that races like the Del Mar, Oak Tree, and Hollywood Derbies were the most appropriate targets at that stage of his career, particularly after breaking his first condition on the turf.

What DrugS fails to add to his 11-race losing streak on turf was that the horse placed in multiple graded stakes on grass (at least during his 3yo year). Cigar also had knee surgery at the end of the year at 3, so its possible he was put on turf for soundness issues as well.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

What DrugS fails to add to his 11-race losing streak on turf was that the horse placed in multiple graded stakes on grass (at least during his 3yo year). Cigar also had knee surgery at the end of the year at 3, so its possible he was put on turf for soundness issues as well.

He was 2nd by 2 length in a Grade 3 to Eastern Memories - and was 3rd at Bay Meadows in a Grade 3 behind Siebe after blowing a 4 length stretch lead going 8.5 furlongs. He made 82K in his 11 career turf starts. Siebe and Eastern Memories stunk.

You have to admit Rollo, if a 3yo colt ran a 93 Beyer with a tough trip the week before the Preakness is won with a 96 Beyer - there is 0 chance he would spend his next 11 starts running blah on the turf.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

He was 2nd by 2 length in a Grade 3 to Eastern Memories - and was 3rd at Bay Meadows in a Grade 3 behind Siebe after blowing a 4 length stretch lead going 8.5 furlongs. He made 82K in his 11 career turf starts. Siebe and Eastern Memories stunk.

You have to admit Rollo, if a 3yo colt ran a 93 Beyer with a tough trip the week before the Preakness is won with a 96 Beyer - there is 0 chance he would spend his next 11 starts running blah on the turf.

Well, to further emphasize the total derth (sp?) of 3yo dirt racing in CA during the time frame involved, Paulson, who was stacked with good 3yos at the time (Corby with Sadler, Diazo with Shoemaker, and Dowty with Jones--though they were all on the bench by summer), ran Diazo in his comeback off the a 5th in the Kentucky Derby on the grass (the restricted Relaunch at Del Mar). Diazo had to ship to get back on the main track (Pegasus, JCGC) before returning home for the BC Classic.

Maybe Cigar should have been shipped East sooner, but nonetheless, really most of the blame for poor management should fall on Mott's shoulders, not Hassinger's (who had to make do with what races were available), as his barn was so big at the time (100+ horses) that its not out of the realm of possibility that Cigar simply got "lost in the shuffle". His decent efforts in CA were probably enough to continue on the surface back East and IIRC he did place in allowance races behind MGSWs like Unaccounted For (whom he ultimately browbeat in Grade 1s on dirt) and possibly Diplomatic Jet (or some other Fred Hooper turfer--Roman Envoy?).

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Maybe Cigar should have been shipped East sooner, but nonetheless, really most of the blame for poor management should fall on Mott's shoulders, not Hassinger's.

I don't know man.

Tiznow was 6th in his debut and if I recall broke his maiden with a fairly good figure in May of his 3yo season out West.

I know he wasn't by a turf sire - and I know Robbins wasn't loaded - but imagine how silly it would have been had they stuck him on the turf for 11 races and 18 months with very moderate success.

[magic_idol]

He looked 1 paced on turf ,
tho unfortunately this jock did him no favours at all !!!,pulled the stick on the turn went about 200 mtrs too soon
Also had to beat a bad barrier


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68CrD...eature=related

[KirisClown]

Ramon Perez came pretty close to riding him in his first dirt start for Mott... gotta wonder what might have been...

[Scav]

I'll never forget that Arlington race of his, it was so manufacturered, yet not a sole in the area gave a ****. I was a junior in high school and my friends and I were the 2nd people in line, behind some nut job that drove their RV all the way from Minnesota to see Cigar that day. Sat on Euclid Ave until about 8:30am where I couldn't take it anymore, so I opened the gate myself and we all poured in and sprinted up the Clubhouse hill to get in line. I got a finish line seat and didn't move the whole f'n day, first and last time in history that will happen.

[Thunder Gulch]

It may be in the extreme, but with all the talk this spring about synthetic to dirt, Cigar's career is a clear example of how the surface can mean everything in determining the success of a racer. Couldn't win on turf, then doesn't lose for two years on dirt. Wonder what would have happended to him on the rubber?

[magic_idol]

Originally Posted by Thunder Gulch

It may be in the extreme, but with all the talk this spring about synthetic to dirt, Cigar's career is a clear example of how the surface can mean everything in determining the success of a racer. Couldn't win on turf, then doesn't lose for two years on dirt. Wonder what would have happended to him on the rubber?

Yes would be very interesting was wondering that myself about a few horses recently street cry for ex produced a great dirt horse his produce suck on turf with synthetic tracks popping up everywhere
Will we see will we see a new breed just for rubber ?

[Dunbar]

Listening to Denman do the call, it sounded more like Cigar was already midway through the long winning streak than the maiden he was. Actually gave me chills.

Take away the turf, and Cigar won 18 of 22 starts, with two 2nds and one 3rd (the close 3rd in the '96 BC Classic). His lone out-of-the-money finish on dirt was his first race.

I drove 200 miles to NY to see he next-to-last race. A good racing-fan start for my 3-yr-old son, too: getting to see Skip Away and Cigar battle it out in the stretch.

--Dunbar

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I don't know man.

Tiznow was 6th in his debut and if I recall broke his maiden with a fairly good figure in May of his 3yo season out West.

I know he wasn't by a turf sire - and I know Robbins wasn't loaded - but imagine how silly it would have been had they stuck him on the turf for 11 races and 18 months with very moderate success.

Well Tiznow broke his maiden routing, so it wasn't as big a leap for him to go in a light Grade 3 on dirt as it would have been for Cigar.

[CSC]

Wasn't Lure supposed to be a Derby horse until they found out his best surface was the turf. Even hall of famers can get it wrong at times.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by CSC

Wasn't Lure supposed to be a Derby horse until they found out his best surface was the turf. Even hall of famers can get it wrong at times.

Lure was a stakes winner on dirt, dead-heating with Devil His Due in the Gotham. I think he was also favorite in the Champagne as a 2yo after an impressive maiden win.

It's interesting to note that Cigar was run above his condition in his first few turf races for Bill Mott (thanks to Kiris for the PPs). And whereas DrugS uses his mid-80s Beyers in those races to validate his distaste for grass, note that he was running turf Beyers in the high 90s as a 3yo in CA. Maybe he should have stayed at Arlington for the Million to secure the win streak record instead of shipping to San Diego to get his ass kicked.

[AeWingnut]

Maybe it was because of qtr cracks. After all that was a problem towards the end.

I am a fan of Cigar. He was a super star. He couldn't help it if everyone was ducking him. It's not like he was running in Optional Claimers

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by AeWingnut

I am a fan of Cigar. He was a super star. He couldn't help it if everyone was ducking him. It's not like he was running in Optional Claimers

Yeah, it was Mott's fault everyone was ducking him.

He was also training Geri, Wekiva Springs, and Peaks And Valleys, all Grade 1 winning older horses, at the time Cigar was on his win streak.

Originally Posted by AeWingnut

Maybe it was because of qtr cracks. After all that was a problem towards the end.

I am a fan of Cigar. He was a super star. He couldn't help it if everyone was ducking him. It's not like he was running in Optional Claimers

It did make for some boring competetion.
Obviously a great horse. But its fun
to watch races when the outcome is in doubt.

There just was not any doubt with him as I remember.
I can remember people saying, this is all set up.
Who cares about racing its all a big set up. They all
take a fall for him. My friends at that time said it
was a big bore... It was hard to convince them that
the horse was really just too good.

And Bailey. They hated Bailey. Said the horse made Bailey.
All kind of silly. I can remember people saying they should
give him a jockey made of lead to make it fair also.

[magic_idol]

Thanks for the Vid.
Had a little chuckle at the barrier attendant loading the horse who when the horse wouldn't go into the stall decided to kick dirt at it .