Perfect Trip Picture Thread

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Dramatic Gold beat him the start prior to the Strub - and was the shorter price.

You won't at least concede he was a little better? It's very obvious Cigar and Siphon were vastly superior.

The reason why that three way speed duel developed was because Jerry Bailey feared if Siphon got an easy lead again he might not be able to catch him with Cigar.

However, Nakatani sent Dramatic Gold to try and get a position outside of Siphon where they could slow it down together and keep Cigar boxed in.

Bailey had to either concede a tactical edge or use up Cigar in a duel with the two best rivals in the race.

With Bailey choosing to do the latter - he basically made it equally tough trips for all 3 horses - but negated any edge the only horse he feared would have had on him. Obviously he regretted doing that because of the result.

[RolloTomasi]

Dare And Go beat Dramatic Gold by open lengths (going 10f) in the Strub. The San Fernando came on a wet track in the former's dirt debut (which Dramatic Gold didn't win). He was at least as good as that horse when healthy.

As far as Siphon goes, he maybe quicker on speed figures, but that didn't make him a dominant runner. Aside from his Big Cap win (which like the Gold Cup was unexpected--Gentlemen was the main hope in that one), he didn't collect any other major wins.

For the most part, all 3 horses were basically top class bridesmaids.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Dare And Go beat Dramatic Gold by open lengths (going 10f) in the Strub.

Dare And Go got a 6lbs weight break from Dramatic Gold - and made a clear early lead through slow fractions and won by just 1.25 lengths.

According to the chart: "Dare And Go took command from the start setting moderate early fractions, raced on the rail with the lead throughout, responded to the challenge of Dramatic Gold and prevailed in game fashion."

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

As far as Siphon goes, he maybe quicker on speed figures, but that didn't make him a dominant runner. Aside from his Big Cap win (which like the Gold Cup was unexpected--Gentlemen was the main hope in that one), he didn't collect any other major wins.

For the most part, all 3 horses were basically top class bridesmaids.

Siphon ran a Beyer of 115 or more 6 times. Won 12 of 25 lifetime and made over $3 million in earnings.

He won the Santa Anita Handicap over a field that included Formal Gold and Gentleman - two of the best older males I've ever seen when right. He won the Hollywood Gold Cup with a 117 Beyer.

He was not a bridesmaid at all to me - he just happened to catch some outstanding horses on there good days when he was 2nd.

[RolloTomasi]

According to the chart: "Dare And Go took command from the start setting moderate early fractions, raced on the rail with the lead throughout, responded to the challenge of Dramatic Gold and prevailed in game fashion."

So, when he comes from off the pace he gets a perfect setup; and he gets an easy lead when he goes wire-to-wire, beating Dramatic Gold (basically a frontrunner himself) on the square? Who is this horse's sire, Lucky McFortunate?

Forget it, he was a phony.


Siphon ran a Beyer of 115 or more 6 times. Won 12 of 25 lifetime and made over $3 million in earnings.

A large chunk of which came from running 2nd in the Dubai World Cup, Hollywood Gold Cup, and Pacific Classic.

He won the Santa Anita Handicap over a field that included Formal Gold and Gentleman - two of the best older males I've ever seen when right. He won the Hollywood Gold Cup with a 117 Beyer.

Aside from the BC Classic, wasn't that Formal Gold's only off-the-board effort. Obviously he didn't ship particularly well (nor did he favor 10f).

He was not a bridesmaid at all to me - he just happened to catch some outstanding horses on there good days when he was 2nd.

He was at best a souped up version of Ruhlmann...maybe on par with Bertrando.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

So, when he comes from off the pace he gets a perfect setup; and he gets an easy lead when he goes wire-to-wire, beating Dramatic Gold (basically a frontrunner himself) on the square? Who is this horse's sire, Lucky McFortunate?

Forget it, he was a phony.

Dare And Go was 2-for-9 in Graded Stake races on dirt.

I merely quoted what the chart said in his Strub win - where he reversed a head-to-head loss to Dramatic Gold in his prior start.

As for his Pacific Classic win - you are entitled to your opinon that he didn't have a favorable trip.

However, don't pretend like he was some horse who always got a great trip and never had an excuse.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

As for his Pacific Classic win - you are entitled to your opinon that he didn't have a favorable trip.

However, don't pretend like he was some horse who always got a great trip and never had an excuse.

Never said any of that. Merely took issue with your ridiculous assertion that he was "wildly inferior" to Siphon and Dramatic Gold.

I wonder what Siphon and Dramatic Gold's respective records were in Grade 1 dirt races beyond a mile.

[KirisClown]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

The reason why that three way speed duel developed was because Jerry Bailey feared if Siphon got an easy lead again he might not be able to catch him with Cigar. .

If Cigar's heir apparent at the time hadnt run in the Gold Cup, the Pac Classic duel probably would never have happened...

[cmorioles]

Cigar was also a declining horse at the time. He finished his career one for his last four.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Cigar was also a declining horse at the time. He finished his career one for his last four.

Not really - his narrow loss to Skip Away after his 117 Beyer Woodward win was very good..as was his close 3rd place finish (beaten just a neck) in the BC Classic where he was caught wide on both turns over a track where the rail was pretty good all day long.

Cigar faced a lot of easy fields and got many good trips from Bailey throughout his streak. At the end, he ran into some tougher horses and some tougher trips - but his figures stayed very consistant throughout it all.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Cigar was also a declining horse at the time. He finished his career one for his last four.

While I agree, I'm convinced had Cigar had the trip of Alphabet Soup (who was one lane inside of Cigar) in the 96 Breeders Cup and Alphabet Soup had the trip of Cigar the results would have been reversed. The outside was not to be the place that day as the track was heavily biased that day, to give one an example Mt. Sassasfras who rode the rail for the complete 1 1/4 was beaten by no more than a long neck in 4th and though he did go on to win that Gr.1 at GP under Bailey ironically, he shouldn't have even been in the picture. Lit De Justice, Jewell Princess, Boston Harbour all rode the rail that day. All things considered I thought Cigar ran a hell of a race to only be beaten by a neck.

[Travis Stone]

Originally Posted by CSC

While I agree, I'm convinced had Cigar had the trip of Alphabet Soup (who was one lane inside of Cigar) in the 96 Breeders Cup and Alphabet Soup had the trip of Cigar the results would have been reversed. The outside was not to be the place that day as the track was heavily biased that day

It was an extremely rail biased track, and Cigar still dug-in tremendously despite the horrendously wide trip. He only lost by a half-length. That shows what type of horse he was.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

It was an extremely rail biased track, and Cigar still dug-in tremendously despite the horrendously wide trip. He only lost by a half-length. That shows what type of horse he was.

I agree, alot of people focused on Cigar not winning that day and I don't think he got the credit he deserved from that race, he certainly didn't get many favors that day.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by KirisClown

If Cigar's heir apparent at the time hadnt run in the Gold Cup, the Pac Classic duel probably would never have happened...

Quick, name two other Paulson runners that did well at Oaklawn aside from Cigar and Geri.

Hint- Both ran in the BC Mile and the BC Classic. Both won the Razorback. One won the Oaklawn Handicap. One won the Pimlico Special. One was 3rd in the Hollywood Gold Cup. One won the Hollywood Gold Cup. One was a champion. Both were imported. One won the French 2000 Guineas. One was Indian Skimmer's pacesetter and outran its stablemate when facing the legendary Nashwan in the Eclipse.

[cmorioles]

I don't know the colts you are referring to, but Azeri did well there.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I don't know the colts you are referring to, but Azeri did well there.

Yeah, the other day I noticed she won 3 straight Apple Blossoms.

What mare won 3 Matriarchs and 3 Ramonas and came within a neck of winning 3 Beverly Hills?

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Yeah, the other day I noticed she won 3 straight Apple Blossoms.

What mare won 3 Matriarchs and 3 Ramonas and came within a neck of winning 3 Beverly Hills?

Flawlessly, who was one of the great turf mares of all time, and a horse I was very fond of personally.

[KirisClown]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Quick, name two other Paulson runners that did well at Oaklawn aside from Cigar and Geri.

Hint- Both ran in the BC Mile and the BC Classic. Both won the Razorback. One won the Oaklawn Handicap. One won the Pimlico Special. One was 3rd in the Hollywood Gold Cup. One won the Hollywood Gold Cup. One was a champion. Both were imported. One won the French 2000 Guineas. One was Indian Skimmer's pacesetter and outran its stablemate when facing the legendary Nashwan in the Eclipse.

Im not sure...

But, I know K One King won the Oaklawn Handicap for them...

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by KirisClown

Im not sure...

But, I know K One King won the Oaklawn Handicap for them...

I forgot about that one. Good answer.

1989: French import Blushing John won the Razorback, Pimlico Special, Hollywood Gold Cup, and was 3rd to Sunday Silence and Easy Goer in the BC Classic to earn the Handicap Eclipse.

1990: English import Opening Verse flops in the Strub series but wins the Razorback and Oaklawn Handicap before running 3rd in the Hollywood Gold Cup to Criminal Type and Sunday Silence. Well beaten in Unbridled's BC Classic (that reminds me, both ran horrible in the Meadowlands Cup). A year later he won the BC Mile back on turf.