Winning Colors vs. Rags to Riches

[Indian Charlie]

From what I've seen from both fillies, it's pretty obvious that WC at 3 was considerably better than R2R.

However, I thought prior to R2R getting hurt, that she hadn't shown us her best yet and that she was continuing to improve. The potential was there for R2R to be a better filly, especially since AP Indy's tend to get better with age, but speaking strictly as 3 yos, no contest.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

From what I've seen from both fillies, it's pretty obvious that WC at 3 was considerably better than R2R.

However, I thought prior to R2R getting hurt, that she hadn't shown us her best yet and that she was continuing to improve. The potential was there for R2R to be a better filly, especially since AP Indy's tend to get better with age, but speaking strictly as 3 yos, no contest.

Exactly. Based on accomplishments you would have to give it to WC, but Rags to Riches is the greater talent of the two. The Belmont Stakes proved it. Rags could get any distance, and was improving. WC obviously had distance limitations.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

Exactly. Based on accomplishments you would have to give it to WC, but Rags to Riches is the greater talent of the two. The Belmont Stakes proved it. Rags could get any distance. WC obviously had distance limitations.

Oh, now I get it, the better horse is always the one that would win at the farthest possible distance. Thank God that's finally cleared up.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Oh, now I get it, the better horse is always the one that would win at the farthest possible distance. Thank God that's finally cleared up.

I can't wait for the new addition of the Jazil wing to the Hall of Fame.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Oh, now I get it, the better horse is always the one that would win at the farthest possible distance. Thank God that's finally cleared up.

Wow, I didn't even notice her saying that about WC, the distance limitation.

Wow.

The only limitations WC had were her trainer and the trainer of 49r.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Wow, I didn't even notice her saying that about WC, the distance limitation.

Wow.

The only limitations WC had were her trainer and the trainer of 49r.

Aside from her foolishness......can you imagine how Winning Colors would have been revered on message boards had the internet been around in the 80s?

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Aside from her foolishness......can you imagine how Winning Colors would have been revered on message boards had the internet been around in the 80s?

I was on the Internet in 87, but yeah, WC would have had many fan clubs.

You know, I always wondered why you are so hard on KRIM, but I think I see why now.

Oh, and if the 3yo WC prior to her getting assassinated by Woody Stephens in the Preakness had run in this past years Belmont, WC would have had an enormous lead and won by a distance.

WC in this past Oaks would have aired in there too. I'm not even sure that Rags would have beaten Goodbye Halo!

Rags gained big fame from the Belmont.
To me, that Belmont was absolutely bizarre.
We got to see which horse was fastest
after walking on their knees for close to a mile.

The finish was great, but the race too weird.

WC.

[azerica]

Winning Colors. She beat really good horses and went up against the boys on more than one occassion. And my God that '88 BC, that was two great hearts wanting the win. After all these years folks still talk about Winning Colors while I'm afraid that Rags might not get mentioned even 5 years from now unless she could come back in her 4YO season and be better than last year.

[Indian Charlie]

i'm going to go against the grain (and a very popular idea here) and say that since winning colors was a shell of her former self after the preakness, that her bc loss to PE diminishes PE somewhat.

or maybe i'm not saying that right. what i'm trying to say is that even a ruined WC, far from her best, still almost beat PE. a perfectly healthy and sound WC romps in that race.

[prudery]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

i'm going to go against the grain (and a very popular idea here) and say that since winning colors was a shell of her former self after the preakness, that her bc loss to PE diminishes PE somewhat.

or maybe i'm not saying that right. what i'm trying to say is that even a ruined WC, far from her best, still almost beat PE. a perfectly healthy and sound WC romps in that race.

I see your point, but I would like to add a muddling thought to it---Personal Ensign was running on a track she disliked and still overcame it, so it might be thought that both horses were compromised and the result may have been the same had both had their optimum conditions satisfied and were both at their respective peaks ... I do give the edge to Winning Colors over Rags to Riches however, but I believe the BCD result would have remained unchanged .... IMO, the race flattered them both, and a tip of the hat to Goodbye Halo as aforementioned ...
It is also possible that Winning Colors grandfathered herself back to her glory days on that occassion, and Personal Ensign was tailing off ... I do not believe in any way a finish like that diminishes anything ...
As far as a perfectly healthy Winning Colors romping, do not see that either ... Personal Ensign was determined to stay perfect ... And she did ...

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

i'm going to go against the grain (and a very popular idea here) and say that since winning colors was a shell of her former self after the preakness, that her bc loss to PE diminishes PE somewhat.

or maybe i'm not saying that right. what i'm trying to say is that even a ruined WC, far from her best, still almost beat PE. a perfectly healthy and sound WC romps in that race.

I see what you are saying here but that would mean that you have to believe that Winning Colors was only a shell of her former self after the Preakness. I don't believe that to be anywhere close to true. For the Belmont, she obviously was worn out but after getting some time off, she came back better than ever and I think her races in the Maskette and BC Distaff were as good as her efforts in the spring.

Prudery makes the point that the track conditions in the BC were not to Personal Ensign's liking and that may have comprimised her some. I don't know if that's true or not. PE ran a winning race in the Whitney on a sloppy track when she beat Gulch and there is no way to actually know how much a horse likes or dislikes a track.

My opinion is not that PE defeated a lesser version of WC but a better one. And as impressive as the BC win was, I was even more impressed by the Maskette win because it came at a shorter distance that should have been even more advantageous to WC.

[prudery]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I see what you are saying here but that would mean that you have to believe that Winning Colors was only a shell of her former self after the Preakness. I don't believe that to be anywhere close to true. For the Belmont, she obviously was worn out but after getting some time off, she came back better than ever and I think her races in the Maskette and BC Distaff were as good as her efforts in the spring.

Prudery makes the point that the track conditions in the BC were not to Personal Ensign's liking and that may have comprimised her some. I don't know if that's true or not. PE ran a winning race in the Whitney on a sloppy track when she beat Gulch and there is no way to actually know how much a horse likes or dislikes a track.

My opinion is not that PE defeated a lesser version of WC but a better one. And as impressive as the BC win was, I was even more impressed by the Maskette win because it came at a shorter distance that should have been even more advantageous to WC.

I believe Randy Romero said she did not handle the track at all for the BCD---although that may have been jockeyspeak, but I do think she rallied later and more laboringly than she usually did ... Do not recall if the Whitney was a fast or a slow sloppy track---as you know all slop is not equal ... Forego was not a mudder horse --and was scratched for mud, but was successful on a muddy track that he got traction on ... Sloppy, muddy, fast wet, slow wet---minutae--but it can make a difference ...
Agree about the Maskette ...

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by prudery

Littlemisslittlemisscan'tbewrong

The long overdue Spin Doctors reference has basically cemented this thread as TOY for 2008.

[Indian Charlie]

hey roses, do you ever feel the need to get the last word in?

[miraja2]

The ONE thing that I will agree with KYRM on in this thread is that you don't have to have been alive at the time to do this type of comparison.
I wasn't around to see Citation or Johnny Unitas compete, but I think I am still qualified to say that they were better than Cause to Believe and Rex Grossman respectively.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by miraja2

The ONE thing that I will agree with KYRM on in this thread is that you don't have to have been alive at the time to do this type of comparison.
I wasn't around to see Citation or Johnny Unitas compete, but I think I am still qualified to say that they were better than Cause to Believe and Rex Grossman respectively.

For a second there, I thought you were going to say that Citation would have kicked Johnny Unitas's butt.

--Dunbar

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

Exactly. Based on accomplishments you would have to give it to WC, but Rags to Riches is the greater talent of the two. The Belmont Stakes proved it. Rags could get any distance, and was improving. WC obviously had distance limitations.

Uh, that's not exactly what I said or meant.

If you could put both of them as 3yos in a race, I have little doubt WC would beat Rags pretty handily. Talent wise, I'd go with WC.

What I was trying to say is that I don't think we saw the full measure of how good Rags actually is/was. Whether or not she would continue to develop until she was better than WC, I can't say really. My guess is not, but I could have seen it happening before all the nonsense started happening with her.

[Danzig]

talent doesn't bring home trophies, running and winning does. hell, there could have been a thousand other fillies born with more talent then both-so what? talent is in the eye of the beholder, and opinion, while race record/opponents defeated, is a fact.

to say rags was improving is pure speculation. she won over the boys at an obsolete distance that none will ever see again. how does that equate to multiple wins over the boys? or winning the derby? or losing in the last jump to an undefeated personal ensign, a champion who also defeated males, including an eclipse winner? it doesn't.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Danzig

talent doesn't bring home trophies, running and winning does. hell, there could have been a thousand other fillies born with more talent then both-so what? talent is in the eye of the beholder, and opinion, while race record/opponents defeated, is a fact.

to say rags was improving is pure speculation. she won over the boys at an obsolete distance that none will ever see again. how does that equate to multiple wins over the boys? or winning the derby? or losing in the last jump to an undefeated personal ensign, a champion who also defeated males, including an eclipse winner? it doesn't.

Talent and accomplishments. WC would have never beat Curlin in that Belmont Stakes. WC would have never beat Street Sense in the Derby. WC would have not been able to match Curlin and SS in the Preakness. I can see Rags to Riches being right there in all three. She would have been very close if not hitting the wire first. All of it is pure speculation really. I just like Rags to Riches better because I think that she is the better horse. I think that she would have beat winning colors every time. And if Rags to Riches can beat both Curlin and Hard Spun, then I think she could have won multiple other Grade Is against the boys if she would have ran in them. I think that she would have been Horse of the Year if she would have stayed healthy.