Street Sense Number - Page 8

blackthroatedwind · #**141** 03-18-2007, 02:52 PM

I am in no way saying I think Street Sense has shown he NEEDS to be inside to run well. However, there are horses who are " rail runners " that won't run well unless they are inside, though they are often hard to uncover and are probably fairly rare. I just thought it was interesting to point out about Street Sense and it MIGHT be food for thought.

Frankly, considering all the discussion my comment generated, some good and some bad, I'm glad I brought it up.

Grits · #**142** 03-18-2007, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I think you are missing my point, and it's not an absolute one, but at least a possibility.

Some horses are " rail runners " which effectively means they basically need to be on the rail to do their best running and will sort of sulk if they aren't on the fence. The converse is that some horses don't like being inside, and run inside as if they are effectively " chicken ", and won't pass horses on the inside. Since the two big efforts we have seen from Street Sense have come while rallying on the rail I am offering this as at least a possibility.

This is a long thread, and this being the original thought/possibility I think it fair to show BTW's first comment once again, as it DOES deal with psychology first. In that vein, I don't believe it qualifies to mark the last post as moot.

#**143** 03-18-2007, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I'm not sure I would use the word " terrible ", as I felt deceptive was more apt, and I will try to explain.

Let's assume for this argument that all tracks are " fair ", in other words there is no advantage or disadvantage to being in one path or another, and only ground loss is involved. Thus, clearly the more time spent on the inside, or closer to the inside, on the turns the better in terms of overall ground covered. Thus, obviously there is some very real incentive to staying inside. However, many horses are intimidated by running inside of horses, whether in the stretch or sometimes even on turns, so they will not exert themselves if forced into this position. This does not hold true for ALL horses, and I wouldn't ever suggest absolutes like that, but it is true for many. In general, many horses do their best running unencumbered on the outside of other horses. So, for this reason it is a mistake, IMO, to automatically assume that an inside trip is a good trip. It may be...but it is far from an absolute.

I am sure you have bet horses in your life that have had sweet looking trips inside and behind horses and somewhat surprisingly didn't run as well as you figured, and almost looked to be spinning their wheels so to speak, only to come back and run much better the next time with a more outside trip. This goes against the " saving ground is best " way of thinking, and may be due to the horse being uncomfortable inside or perhaps not liking dirt getting kicked in its face, but for whatever reason I think it shows at least the possibility that saving ground is not ALWAYS the best way to victory. The horse's comfort CAN far outweigh any ground loss.

I will pose another reason. It is harder to turn on the inside compared to the outside on turns. What you gain in ground, you quite possibly lose in energy. In order to hold a tight turn you actually have to use more force to stay in that turn.

F (centripetal)= mv^2/r ... its v squared thats the tough part. You have actually slow down to not lose as much energy to hold you in that turn. Any time anything turns it changes direction. Any time a body changes direction it accelerates (changes velocity). Any time a body accelerates a force is required.

And I thank you.

randallscott35 · #**144** 03-18-2007, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zippyneedsawin

Don't you mean the second coming of Mineshaft?

HAHA.

Merlinsky · #**145** 03-18-2007, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I am in no way saying I think Street Sense has shown he NEEDS to be inside to run well. However, there are horses who are " rail runners " that won't run well unless they are inside, though they are often hard to uncover and are probably fairly rare. I just thought it was interesting to point out about Street Sense and it MIGHT be food for thought.

Frankly, considering all the discussion my comment generated, some good and some bad, I'm glad I brought it up.

Oh I think it's a fun thread. C'mon do your ESPN commentators bring that up at all? Nope. You get this kind of discussion on Derby Trail. Good times.

magic_idol · #**146** 03-18-2007, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgardn

I will pose another reason. It is harder to turn on the inside compared to the outside on turns. What you gain in ground, you quite possibly lose in energy. In order to hold a tight turn you actually have to use more force to stay in that turn.

F (centripetal)= mv^2/r ... its v squared thats the tough part. You have actually slow down to not lose as much energy to hold you in that turn. Any time anything turns it changes direction. Any time a body changes direction it accelerates (changes velocity). Any time a body accelerates a force is required.

And I thank you.

The shortest point From A to B is a straight line if your horse can handle the turn allways take the inside saves in distance a hell of alot,Some horses dont like being closed in so the outdside is better but mind the jockey they dont like sitting outside as it makes them look bad on TV

#**147** 03-18-2007, 06:52 PM

Yeah, no, I mean it's good to bring up all kinds of pts. with regards to these horses. At least it gives you an excuse when they fail to perform as expected.

It's also possible that his, (SS) running style is a function of Borel, who I guess likes to ride that close to the rail. IF so this horse certainly is tailor made for his style. I thought he was blocked along the rail today as they entered the turn and didnt realize he had actually got through until I heard the announcer near the final strides. Faulty camera work, I guess.

THe horse I was trying to think of was Sharp Humour who went down to the wire w/ Barbaro in whatever race it was. He wasnt intimidated but Barb. tried to hip check him through the stretch. Did anyone see ANy Given Sat. doing that to SS? Or was it just a brush?

Cajungator26 · #**148** 03-18-2007, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by easy goer

It's also possible that his, (SS) running style is a function of Borel, who I guess likes to ride that close to the rail.

I was just thinking about that... that's also an interesting point.

#**149** 03-18-2007, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by magic_idol

The shortest point From A to B is a straight line

Not if the line is drawn on curved surface. It is very tough to run tight turns fast. It takes a toll in energy. Look at some of these tracks with 5 f turf sprints (turf tracks usually being inside the dirt thus tighter turns) The horses have a hell of a time holding that turn sometimes and its hard unless a horse is really got a big muscular right side, a bit unbalanced based on our counter clockwise ways of running. Heck look a track athletes that run the 200m. Not many like the inside lane, even if the track is slanted (all good ones are) to allow gravity to play a role in holding them in that turn.

Dunbar · #**150** 03-18-2007, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by magic_idol

The shortest point From A to B is a straight line if your horse can handle the turn allways take the inside saves in distance a hell of alot,Some horses dont like being closed in so the outdside is better but mind the jockey they dont like sitting outside as it makes them look bad on TV

Your first sentence doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. The shortest distance between A & B may be a straight line, but the inside rail is the furthest path from a "straight line" of any, at least in the sense of curvature.

You quote pgardn, and then do not address at all the valid point he makes. It takes energy to make tight turns. This should be intuitively obvious to anyone who has applied the brakes to a car making a tight turn. I'm not sure how to quantify the effect for horses, but I suspect it must be a real effect for some horses. It's going to be less important at a big oval like Belmont than at a smaller track. I can remember horses almost skidding around the turns at Sportsmans Park.

--Dunbar

randallscott35 · #**151** 03-18-2007, 08:34 PM

I give Borel credit, the guy has guts. Way too many jocks go wide every chance they get. Calvin understand geometry .

blackthroatedwind · #**152** 03-18-2007, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Calvin understand geometry .

What do you think his score on the Math SAT was?

randallscott35 · #**153** 03-18-2007, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

What do you think his score on the Math SAT was?

On the old one. LOL. Remember its out of 2400 now. When it was 1600 and math was 800, I'd guess his math score was 430 maybe.....Maybe he took the A C T?....

Cannon Shell · #**154** 03-18-2007, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardus

Would it be fair to say that Hansel "bounced" in the Derby after running two huge races within five weeks of the Derby (track record in the Jim Beam and winning the Lexington Stakes)?

I honestly dont remember but I did bet him in the Preakness but can't remember why.

Cannon Shell · #**155** 03-18-2007, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardus

I like your point about starting a horse's three-year-old season in a sprint race. I follow Australian racing, and top tier horses usually start a "preparation" (series of races) at 6F or 7F. No reason it could not be done here.

It was done here for about a hundred years

Cannon Shell · #**156** 03-18-2007, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardus

Because he bounced in the Derby???????????

Maybe?

Cannon Shell · #**157** 03-18-2007, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardus

The practice of not running them in sprints to begin their Derby preparations is relatively new, isn't it (10 years)?

It used to be customary for Florida three-year-olds to run in the Hutcheson Stakes to begin the season.

I thought that the Hutch would have been a great spot for Street Sense

Gulfstream did not always have the same dates as they used to switch with Hialeah. The Bahamas at Hialeah was also a race that was used as a starting point for many top three year olds.

ArlJim78 · #**158** 03-19-2007, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

It was done here for about a hundred years

For a quality route horse where there are no "can he get the distance" questions, I love to see a sprint under his belt before stretching out. I have this theory that it helps to get the stride rate up, and is great to build fitness.

I'm not a trainer but it just seems logical.

Cajungator26 · #**159** 03-19-2007, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

For a quality route horse where there are no "can he get the distance" questions, I love to see a sprint under his belt before stretching out. I have this theory that it helps to get the stride rate up, and is great to build fitness.

I'm not a trainer but it just seems logical.

I'm not a trainer either and have no clue, but couldn't that be accomplished in a bullet work?

ArlJim78 · #**160** 03-19-2007, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

I'm not a trainer either and have no clue, but couldn't that be accomplished in a bullet work?

To an extent , yes. But since workouts are generally never done at racing speed you don't get the full effect. At least that's the way it seems to me.
Maybe Cannon Shell can comment on that.