Lava Man to Dubai - Page 2

#21 03-13-2007, 10:27 AM

Lava Man has proved consistently that he's a good shipper BACK to California and can return to top form in California after a little rest (no more than 2 months). Both races off layoffs were Sunshine Millions Races (one after Japan and one after Churchill) and, in all honesty, in both Sunshine Races he looked like he needed the race badly as a prep for the more challenging SA 'Cap. I don't think that he's toast for his career or for this year by going to Dubai, but I do think that the connections are doing what is in their best interest (a free trip with all the trappings in Dubai) than in what is in Lava Man's best interests.

I DEFINITELY would take a shot at shipping him within the US for a turf race just to be certain beyond any doubt that shipping and not surface is his problem when he ships (4 races out of 37 don't make much of scientific example in shipping), but the Woodford Reserve would've been a dream spot for him to run. Churchill on Derby Day - National TV coverage - a Grade 1 - and possible soft competition. Plus he could get bute 24 hours+ before the race in KY and Lasix. Bad, bad move and O'Neill really should've taken a stand against this move to Dubai.

Cajungator26 · #22 03-13-2007, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FairPlay

Lava Man has proved consistently that he's a good shipper BACK to California and can return to top form in California after a little rest (no more than 2 months). Both races off layoffs were Sunshine Millions Races (one after Japan and one after Churchill) and, in all honesty, in both Sunshine Races he looked like he needed the race badly as a prep for the more challenging SA 'Cap. I don't think that he's toast for his career or for this year by going to Dubai, but I do think that the connections are doing what is in their best interest (a free trip with all the trappings in Dubai) than in what is in Lava Man's best interests.

I DEFINITELY would take a shot at shipping him within the US for a turf race just to be certain beyond any doubt that shipping and not surface is his problem when he ships (4 races out of 37 don't make much of scientific example in shipping), but the Woodford Reserve would've been a dream spot for him to run. Churchill on Derby Day - National TV coverage - a Grade 1 - and possible soft competition. Plus he could get bute 24 hours+ before the race in KY and Lasix. Bad, bad move and O'Neill really should've taken a stand against this move to Dubai.

I felt that way before the Breeders Cup, but I'm pretty convinced that the reason he does so poorly has a lot to do with being shipped. Since he seems to do OK in California, this tells me that he probably has an issue with being put on an airplane. It has also been noted that he's a stall walker (which doesn't help the cause either.)

Dunbar · #23 03-13-2007, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danzig188

altho many think he should stay where he's been so successful--why not take the chance? yeah, he's winless when shipping, but he bounces right back when he gets home.
besides, you don't know if you don't try.

good luck in dubai lava man! we'll be rooting for ya!

c'mon, you know you'll pull for him.

ditto, ditto, and ditto!

--Dunbar

horseofcourse · #24 03-13-2007, 11:27 AM

I hope he does well and returns to Cal in one piece. Everything else is moot. If you're going to ship...go for the big prize. Why ship to Ky for a 500,000 puse Or Il for the Arlington Million when he doesn't ship well there either?? I can see both sides of this argument.

PPerfectfan · #25 03-13-2007, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moodwalker

Okay..... upped to great second from good second.

David Junior pissed on all of them though. Rudely, I might add.

Thanks thats all I ask for.hehe Now come on Rudely??? maybe with a mean look on his face...yeah thats it.

whodey17 · #26 03-13-2007, 11:50 AM

This is a great idea. Why not go for the money. Dubai doesnt ruin as many horses as people think. We all know that Lava Man can't ship and win, but he can always return to SoCal and win. He will prob get his butt kicked in Dubai but cant fault the connections for trying.

SniperSB23 · #27 03-13-2007, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

I hope he does well and returns to Cal in one piece. Everything else is moot. If you're going to ship...go for the big prize. Why ship to Ky for a 500,000 puse Or Il for the Arlington Million when he doesn't ship well there either?? I can see both sides of this argument.

You are assuming that if Lava Man runs his best his chances are the same in Dubai as they are in the Woodford Reserve. I don't agree with that assumption at all. Lava Man could ship to Dubai, run his best and still get his butt kicked. If he runs his best in the Woodford Reserve he would have a shot at winning and should at least run top three.

PPerfectfan · #28 03-13-2007, 12:09 PM

And its free to go. Lets not forget that! Take a free trip to Dubai to run for a shot at 5 Million. Hey, he isnt a good shipper, why not take the shot for 5 Mil, instead of 500k for the chance he just might hold his form on the grass.

SniperSB23 · #29 03-13-2007, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PPerfectfan

And its free to go. Lets not forget that! Take a free trip to Dubai to run for a shot at 5 Million. Hey, he isnt a good shipper, why not take the shot for 5 Mil, instead of 500k for the chance he just might hold his form on the grass.

And that is the single biggest reason that a lot of these people are going. They are willing to sacrifice their horse for several months for the free trip in first class accomodations. Just don't buy any of their BS that what they are doing is in the best interest of the horse.

miraja2 · #30 03-13-2007, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

If you're going to ship...go for the big prize. Why ship to Ky for a 500,000 puse Or Il for the Arlington Million when he doesn't ship well there either??

The bigger question is....why ship him at all? It isn't like he only runs well at Fairmount Park so his connections are stuck if they want to make $$ and get him some big G1 and G2 wins.
He runs well at Santa Anita, Hollywood, and Del Mar. There are plenty of good races THERE for him to run in.

horseofcourse · #31 03-13-2007, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

You are assuming that if Lava Man runs his best his chances are the same in Dubai as they are in the Woodford Reserve. I don't agree with that assumption at all. Lava Man could ship to Dubai, run his best and still get his butt kicked. If he runs his best in the Woodford Reserve he would have a shot at winning and should at least run top three.

The way he's shipped, I don't know if he'd have a chance in the Woodford Reserve either. And if that's the case go higher. Personally I don't know if I'd ship him...but the owners have done well by this horse and want to do it. He's won them nearly 5 million dollars. I can't blame them. As I said...I see both sides. He's got this one nagging question of running outside Cal, and in my opinion they might as well try it. I wouldn't ship him at all other than the BC at the end of the year.

Danzig · #32 03-13-2007, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miraja2

Right....but Lava Man isn't.

depends on how you look at it! i look at it as a good shipper doesn't get ill, lose a beat, etc. a bad shipper is one who is laid up for months after. some tho might think a good shipper is one who wins his race--but then he might be laid up for months after....so he's not really a good shipper.

lava man ships great-he just doesn't pay his travelling expenses til he gets back home!!

Danzig · #33 03-13-2007, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

And that is the single biggest reason that a lot of these people are going. They are willing to sacrifice their horse for several months for the free trip in first class accomodations. Just don't buy any of their BS that what they are doing is in the best interest of the horse.

i take the opposite view, i prefer not to think that they're being so mercenary about it. i don't know that racing a horse should be viewed as sacrificing him. he doesn't do poorly after shipping, other than actual race day performance (thus far). he was off a few months after shipping to japan and back, but he seemed a tired horse before even going.
he's a racehorse, he's supposed to race. i think really they should be applauded for taking this guy world wide. so few don't when they could, when they should.

SOREHOOF · #34 03-13-2007, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danzig188

depends on how you look at it! i look at it as a good shipper doesn't get ill, lose a beat, etc. a bad shipper is one who is laid up for months after. some tho might think a good shipper is one who wins his race--but then he might be laid up for months after....so he's not really a good shipper.

lava man ships great-he just doesn't pay his travelling expenses til he gets back home!!

It's not the trip, it's the BUTE . He can't run without BUTE. Thats why he can't win outside of Cal. The soft competition in Cal doesn't hurt either. But it's not his fault no one from the east goes out to face him. Surf Cat will stomp him into a dirt hole if he can stay together long enough to face him.

Danzig · #35 03-14-2007, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOREHOOF

It's not the trip, it's the BUTE . He can't run without BUTE. Thats why he can't win outside of Cal. The soft competition in Cal doesn't hurt either. But it's not his fault no one from the east goes out to face him. Surf Cat will stomp him into a dirt hole if he can stay together long enough to face him.

i wish i had a dollar for every time someone claimed it was the bute. bute isn't limited to cali. of course that's been posted on here fairly often when the accusation is made. but some still cling to their urban myths i suppose.

Danzig · #36 03-14-2007, 06:24 AM

bute: Short for phenylbutazone, a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory medication that is legal in most racing jurisdictions. Often known by the trade names Butazolidin and Butazone

that definition came from nyra.

SOREHOOF · #37 03-14-2007, 05:55 PM

I knew that would get a rise. Cal seems to be the only major league jurisdiction that allows it. I know it's not exactly hard drugs, more like aspirin, but he seems to be able to ship all over Cal and do well. Maybe he is just overmatched outside of Cal. I hope he wins in Dubai. Premium Tap has a shot in his race and he runs drug free.

Danzig · #38 03-14-2007, 06:01 PM

i like premium tap, and am sorry to see him sold out of country. but i'll be pulling for invasor.

as for lava man, i'll be pulling for him. at least with horses like him and invasor you can root for them to win without worrying that they'll be retired as soon as possible. you get behind horses only to see them sent off to the farm. it's odd, we all want to see some really good horses, and gear up for the ky derby, knowing the eventual winner is too soon going to be off the scene.

SOREHOOF · #39 03-15-2007, 05:02 AM

You said It !

#40 03-15-2007, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danzig188

bute: Short for phenylbutazone, a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory medication that is legal in most racing jurisdictions. Often known by the trade names Butazolidin and Butazone

that definition came from nyra.

The problem is that some people look at the PP's and do not see a "B" beside the "L" and think that Bute was absent. Certain state's requirements do not require the reporting of Bute so it is absent from the PP's. Kentucky is an example. Lava Man ran under the same bute rules in CA and in KY for the Breeders' Cup..it can be administered no later than 24 hours before post time of the race. The dosage is the same, as well, I believe.