Is it possible....

[justindew]

...that the "change in training tactics" that we've heard so much about in recent years is to blame for what has to be the most depressing spring in quite some time? In other words, maybe a horse needs solid juvenile form, three preps at age 3, and all that jazz. Maybe the horses who bucked the trends (Barabro, Street Sense, Curlin, etc.) were just superior, and too many trainers thought there was no need to do things the old fashioned way anymore based on insufficient evidence that "the breed has changed."

We had 20 starters in the Derby, 12 in the Preakness, and nine in the Belmont. That's 41 "performances" in the Triple Crown. How many of those performances would score a rating of "above average"? Three? Four? How about if you include the entire spring? Seven?

I admit I know nothing about training horses, but I have to wonder if the horses we just saw compete in the Triple Crown were adequately prepared.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by justindew

...that the "change in training tactics" that we've heard so much about in recent years is to blame for what has to be the most depressing spring in quite some time? In other words, maybe a horse needs solid juvenile form, three preps at age 3, and all that jazz. Maybe the horses who bucked the trends (Barabro, Street Sense, Curlin, etc.) were just superior, and too many trainers thought there was no need to do things the old fashioned way anymore based on insufficient evidence that "the breed has changed."

We had 20 starters in the Derby, 12 in the Preakness, and nine in the Belmont. That's 41 "performances" in the Triple Crown. How many of those performances would score a rating of "above average"? Three? Four? How about if you include the entire spring? Seven?

I admit I know nothing about training horses, but I have to wonder if the horses we just saw compete in the Triple Crown were adequately prepared.

I dont think training tactics are much different but running tactics or lackthereof have changed for sure

[justindew]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I dont think training tactics are much different but running tactics or lackthereof have changed for sure

I probably should have said "prepping tactics."

[Cannon Shell]

Let's face it, the bottom line is that owners are to blame for this. You have guys getting in the business strictly to get horses into these events and to pick up a stud deal along the way. They give their horses to 'supertrainers' who need to get to these races a whole lot more than they need to win them. Just getting there is the goal now, getting there and hoping it works out. If you lose then you blame the jock, vet, track surface, heat, wind, post position, rag number, etc. As long as the owners are getting on the trail and make the big events once in a while they will keep the horses with you. If you dont make it there with their horses they fire you and hire another supertrainer. If you do something unconventional (which i guess would be actually racing now) and it doesnt work out you get fired. Once a horse shows potential trainers tend to get cautious. Owners begin to dream, racing advisors start plotting courses, and trainers get nervous because if the horse doesnt turnout, you take the blame. The days of Charlie Whittingham not showing up for 30 years because he only wanted to run if he thought he would win are over and the game is NOT better for it.

[Stall Mucker]

Brown melted down in the detention barn. ESPN did a good job catching BB's antics while detained. I'm sure there were more outbursts than the cameras saw. Dutrow should make a point of saying something.
On the walk over there were a couple of things that caught the cameras eye:
The owners were no where in sight and the handling crew was very animated while walking as well as not showing any confidence.

[Runningincircles]

Here's my reaction to what was going on with Big Brown and his connections, including the syndicate ownership and his trainer:


1. A horse that isn't properly conditioned will not win at a mile and a half. In the long-ago past, I conditioned horses for eventing, and learned that while you might be able to get away with "just talent" for a small event, anything that requires stamina also requires careful conditioning. The TC has always been a tough balance between keeping the horse fresh and keeping the horse conditioned -- but not to condition at all between races with appropriate speed work, etc., is ridiculous. If the horse's hooves can't stand appropriate work, then wishful thinking about conditioning won't suffice either.

2. Blowhard trainers who constantly take shortcuts eventually lose.

3. Steroids fool athletes and trainers into believing they "really are so good" they don't need the drugs, don't need to be conditioned, etc. (We've seen this same lesson learned the hard way in track and field, baseball and the Tour de France -- so why would we need to learn it once again in horse racing? The happy bliss of human ignorance, I guess.) When I heard that Big Brown had been on steroids (and of course the mysterious "vitamins" tubed into him) until the Derby, that he wasn't being worked at speed between the TC races, and then when I saw him walk almost flat footed between saddle-up and gate, I thought, this horse just isn't on the muscle for this race, whether due to the absence of the chemicals in his body, or the heat, or the lack of conditioning, or a combination. The trainer had started believing his own BS, always a dangerous proposition in the racing world.

I'm sorry that Big Brown didn't win, because I would have liked to see a TC winner (and unlike some, I like Desmoreaux), but in the long run, I'm glad that if Big Brown's "talent" to date was more a product of steriods and luck than breeding and innate will to run, his connections weren't rewarded for "their" bad behavior.

[HaloWishingwell]

Originally Posted by Stall Mucker

Brown melted down in the detention barn. ESPN did a good job catching BB's antics while detained. I'm sure there were more outbursts than the cameras saw. Dutrow should make a point of saying something.
On the walk over there were a couple of things that caught the cameras eye:
The owners were no where in sight and the handling crew was very animated while walking as well as not showing any confidence.

so this is the answer for his performance? Whatever happned for the "he is so cool and nothing bothers him" comments? That he even takes a nap during race days since nothing bothers him?

[31lengths]

There are 1,516 members on this board and 1,516 opinions as well.
Fortunately for some he lost......Unfortunately for some, he lost.
30 years is a long time but it'll happen. For what ever reason....it'll happen.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Let's face it, the bottom line is that owners are to blame for this. You have guys getting in the business strictly to get horses into these events and to pick up a stud deal along the way. They give their horses to 'supertrainers' who need to get to these races a whole lot more than they need to win them. Just getting there is the goal now, getting there and hoping it works out. If you lose then you blame the jock, vet, track surface, heat, wind, post position, rag number, etc. As long as the owners are getting on the trail and make the big events once in a while they will keep the horses with you. If you dont make it there with their horses they fire you and hire another supertrainer. If you do something unconventional (which i guess would be actually racing now) and it doesnt work out you get fired. Once a horse shows potential trainers tend to get cautious. Owners begin to dream, racing advisors start plotting courses, and trainers get nervous because if the horse doesnt turnout, you take the blame. The days of Charlie Whittingham not showing up for 30 years because he only wanted to run if he thought he would win are over and the game is NOT better for it.

You forgot blaming ME!!

[ELA]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Let's face it, the bottom line is that owners are to blame for this. You have guys getting in the business strictly to get horses into these events and to pick up a stud deal along the way. They give their horses to 'supertrainers' who need to get to these races a whole lot more than they need to win them. Just getting there is the goal now, getting there and hoping it works out. If you lose then you blame the jock, vet, track surface, heat, wind, post position, rag number, etc. As long as the owners are getting on the trail and make the big events once in a while they will keep the horses with you. If you dont make it there with their horses they fire you and hire another supertrainer. If you do something unconventional (which i guess would be actually racing now) and it doesnt work out you get fired. Once a horse shows potential trainers tend to get cautious. Owners begin to dream, racing advisors start plotting courses, and trainers get nervous because if the horse doesnt turnout, you take the blame. The days of Charlie Whittingham not showing up for 30 years because he only wanted to run if he thought he would win are over and the game is NOT better for it.

I don't take this personally, so my response is not meant personally. However, Chuck, in all due respect -- you have multifacted problems, stemming from origins of many places, circular problems, complex problems . . . and as such, the blame does not lie with one party or group. I've often heard about "holding owners accountable" -- yet I've heard so very little about the vets.

This is not a "blame the owner" situation. The generic group we call the "the owner" is part of it without question, and so is the generic group we call "the trainer" and "the farms and breeding industry" and "the vets" and "the pinhookers" and "the racetrack management" and so on.

Eric

[Pedigree Ann]

Trainers like Lukas and Baffert depended on innate talent for their stayers, since neither learned much about conditioning while training QHs. Lukas had a good eye for an athlete, and Baffert had people with a good eye for an athlete, who picked out Silver Charms and Real Quiets for him.

Afleet Alex came out of his exhausting Derby, and his acrobatic miracle in the Preakness, to run his best race ever in the Belmont because he had been properly conditioned, by a horseman who knew how to get a horse fit.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

Trainers like Lukas and Baffert depended on innate talent for their stayers, since neither learned much about conditioning while training QHs. Lukas had a good eye for an athlete, and Baffert had people with a good eye for an athlete, who picked out Silver Charms and Real Quiets for him.

Afleet Alex came out of his exhausting Derby, and his acrobatic miracle in the Preakness, to run his best race ever in the Belmont because he had been properly conditioned, by a horseman who knew how to get a horse fit.

I am not disputing any of that -- however, in a discussion like this I don't think we can generically say "trainers" or "owners" or any group for that matter. Afleet Alex was a very tough racehorse. Perhaps as a tough a colt as we've seen in some time. From the beginning of his 2yo year, straight through the end of his career -- he showed up and danced every dance. Unfortunately, he didn't go on, just like so many we've seen before. The "so many" comes more from the breed itself, then what we do with the breed.

Anyway, DWL has taken criticism his entire career, from both people who have no idea what they are talking about, and people who do. Baffert is no different -- another easy target for criticism. So what. At one time or another they produced results. If we know that "the cost" was just too much then it behooves those in a position to do something about it. Unfortunately, easier said than done.

It's circular blame here. As long as there are big money races and owners who want to win them, and stud deals, there will be farms who breed for speed and precocious two year olds. As a result, there will be faster and faster two year old sales. There will also be pinhookers and trainers who need to produce for the owner who paid big money for that two year old. What do they care about the sophmore season, they need to get to the big dances as a two year old so they know they have a quality animal. The trainer has to answer to the owner, or start the BS stories, and later save face. The owner wants to bring his family and friends and enjoy the sport of kings -- but don't forget that big money stallion deal, we want that too -- and the horse has to be rushed off to the breeding shed. And so on and so on.

Listen, this is all about economics -- period. Economics, capitalism, supply and demand, etc. are all driving this business and sport.

Eric