Charitable Man and Convocation

[Handicappy]

I am getting disappointed with Charitable Man in his last couple of starts and wonder how good he really is. While I think Desormeaux mugged him through-out the middle of the first turn and through the back stretch yesterday, I just wonder how good he is. I wonder what the rest of you folks think.

KD first came inside then pushed out and kept brushing and pushing out charitable man every few strides, checked his horse (convocation) repeatedly as he kept moving into impossible holes just to stay with CM and, of course, cost his own horse any chance in the race. Compromising CM along the way.

KD has been riding great but it is these kinds of rides that make it difficult to handicapp a race.

In the Belmont, Alan got taught a lesson by Desormeaux. Alan moved when he saw MTB's premature move and flattened out in the stretch in what was a distance he probably was not meant to run. I just don't know what to make of CM at this point.

[Gander]

I never really thought much of Charitable Man, but I liked Convocation yesterday who ran even worse. Chartiable Man got that dream set up in that funny race (think it was the Dwyer) where Hello Broadway went out in crazy
6F type splits and has been badly overbet in both starts since.

I doubt Charitable Man will run in the Travers as word has it the horse has physical issues and is often being seen by the vet.

Going to be interesting to see who goes in the Travers. Kensei supposedly has distance limitations but you would never know it from yesterday's race.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Handicappy

I am getting disappointed with Charitable Man in his last couple of starts and wonder how good he really is. While I think Desormeaux mugged him through-out the middle of the first turn and through the back stretch yesterday, I just wonder how good he is. I wonder what the rest of you folks think.

KD first came inside then pushed out and kept brushing and pushing out charitable man every few strides, checked his horse (convocation) repeatedly as he kept moving into impossible holes just to stay with CM and, of course, cost his own horse any chance in the race. Compromising CM along the way.

KD has been riding great but it is these kinds of rides that make it difficult to handicapp a race.

In the Belmont, Alan got taught a lesson by Desormeaux. Alan moved when he saw MTB's premature move and flattened out in the stretch in what was a distance he probably was not meant to run. I just don't know what to make of CM at this point.

Do you think maybe the horse was a little rank and the jock had a hard time settling him down?

[the_fat_man]

It's be interesting to get E Donovan's take on this. He'd probably set a new personal record for using 'steadied' and 'uncomfortable' in a sentence.

What's there to get about this horse? He got a difficult trip (wide and off the pace, when he's typically closer) in a race that didn't come back (went 2-1 around the track.) And, while running significantly more (in terms of pace and distance covered) than his barnmate, Flat Bold, he gamely finished ahead of that one (while dropping Convocation fairly easily).

I'd like to see Kensei in a more fairly run race.

Of course, next time out, there'll probably be mucho pace and the race will collapse -- and Charitable Man will be sent on a suicide duel. You know how that goes.

P.S. I never really thought much of this horse.

[VOL JACK]

Originally Posted by Handicappy

I am getting disappointed with Charitable Man in his last couple of starts and wonder how good he really is. While I think Desormeaux mugged him through-out the middle of the first turn and through the back stretch yesterday, I just wonder how good he is. I wonder what the rest of you folks think.

KD first came inside then pushed out and kept brushing and pushing out charitable man every few strides, checked his horse (convocation) repeatedly as he kept moving into impossible holes just to stay with CM and, of course, cost his own horse any chance in the race. Compromising CM along the way.

KD has been riding great but it is these kinds of rides that make it difficult to handicapp a race.

In the Belmont, Alan got taught a lesson by Desormeaux. Alan moved when he saw MTB's premature move and flattened out in the stretch in what was a distance he probably was not meant to run. I just don't know what to make of CM at this point.

What kind of ride were you expected from Dedumbeaux? In terms of quality?

You could send him a message on facebook like I did.

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by VOL JACK

What kind of ride were you expected from Dedumbeaux? In terms of quality?

You could send him a message on facebook like I did.

You are right. He's just been riding better and I thought he was over his brain lock days. At least for awhile. As for Charitable Man, I respect Kiaran who really likes this horse. As for visits to the vet, not sure where that rumor came from but he hasn't missed a work since he started back in January. No real issues there. In the Belmont he got sliced up a bit but other than that he hasn't had a problem.

I did think that Convocation was rank at the outset but when I looked at the race over and over I realized he really wasn't. Des. just yanked him in and then out and then kept pushing him into a spot that wasn't there, banging into Charitable Man in the process.

[dalakhani]

http://nyra.com/Saratoga/Broadcast/Video/Video.shtml

I dont know how anyone who watched that race yesterday could blame the problems of the 7 on the jock.

These are animals not machines. Watch the head on replays. The horse is rank and uncomfortable all the way around the back side. The horse broke from the outside and the jock brought him to the rail after the break to save ground. From there the horse gets headstrong and refuses to relax.

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

http://nyra.com/Saratoga/Broadcast/Video/Video.shtml

I dont know how anyone who watched that race yesterday could blame the problems of the 7 on the jock.

These are animals not machines. Watch the head on replays. The horse is rank and uncomfortable all the way around the back side. The horse broke from the outside and the jock brought him to the rail after the break to save ground. From there the horse gets headstrong and refuses to relax.

He gets headstrong because you never put a rank horse on the rail behind horses. They will only fight more. You take him to the outside where he has room and can relax. But look at it anyway you want. They are animals who are well trained and their jock's do bear some responsibility for managing them. And we aren't talking about the Penn National Jockey colony here. We are talking about Saratoga and a Hall of Fame joc. Sorry Penn National Jock's where ever you are.

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by Gander

I never really thought much of Charitable Man, but I liked Convocation yesterday who ran even worse. Chartiable Man got that dream set up in that funny race (think it was the Dwyer) where Hello Broadway went out in crazy
6F type splits and has been badly overbet in both starts since.

I doubt Charitable Man will run in the Travers as word has it the horse has physical issues and is often being seen by the vet.

Going to be interesting to see who goes in the Travers. Kensei supposedly has distance limitations but you would never know it from yesterday's race.

no physical issues aside from grabbing a quarter in the Belmont. He hasn't missed a work since January. And you are right, Kensei ran extremely well. however I think he may have a much better stable mate!

[Thunder Gulch]

Charitable Man was fast last year, but there are numerous horses that have developed more than him. The sheets guys keep trying to give him big figures for going wide again and again, but this horse just doesn't appear to really want to win when he looks competitive animals in the eye. A classic money burner IMO.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Handicappy

He gets headstrong because you never put a rank horse on the rail behind horses. They will only fight more. You take him to the outside where he has room and can relax. But look at it anyway you want. They are animals who are well trained and their jock's do bear some responsibility for managing them. And we aren't talking about the Penn National Jockey colony here. We are talking about Saratoga and a Hall of Fame joc. Sorry Penn National Jock's where ever you are.

How would he know if he was rank if he made the move almost immediately out of the gate? The jock takes the horse to the inside a few jumps out in order to save ground.

The plan was obviously to close. So, in your perfect ride, you will leave a closer WIDE? The jock did what he was supposed to do. The horse didnt settle. This was a 7-1 shot that has a HISTORY OF BEING A HEADCASE. See only previous two turn start. Then again, its easier to just blame the jockey.

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

How would he know if he was rank if he made the move almost immediately out of the gate? The jock takes the horse to the inside a few jumps out in order to save ground.

The plan was obviously to close. So, in your perfect ride, you will leave a closer WIDE? The jock did what he was supposed to do. The horse didnt settle. This was a 7-1 shot that has a HISTORY OF BEING A HEADCASE. See only previous two turn start. Then again, its easier to just blame the jockey.

I am not just blaming the jock. But you have a head case horse with a jockey who CAN be a head case. In this case, two negatives don't equal a positive. And if you look at the beginning of this thread, I am not defending Charitable Man. I am not sure he is the horse I thought he could be this year. He doesn't seem to have developed well as a three year old. Maybe it is the injury he sustained last year or maybe he just isn't that kind of horse. I am only commenting that while I am leaning in the direction of him being not "that kind of horse" I wish he wasn't continually pushed and bumped every few strides through-out most of the race.

And a jock knows what kind of horse he has at the break. And yes, if you have a rank horse, one of the strategies is to pull him outside, closer or not. What choice does a jock have anyway. If he doesn't get him to settle he has no chance anyway.

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by Thunder Gulch

Charitable Man was fast last year, but there are numerous horses that have developed more than him. The sheets guys keep trying to give him big figures for going wide again and again, but this horse just doesn't appear to really want to win when he looks competitive animals in the eye. A classic money burner IMO.

I think you might be right.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Handicappy

I am not just blaming the jock. But you have a head case horse with a jockey who CAN be a head case. In this case, two negatives don't equal a positive. And if you look at the beginning of this thread, I am not defending Charitable Man. I am not sure he is the horse I thought he could be this year. He doesn't seem to have developed well as a three year old. Maybe it is the injury he sustained last year or maybe he just isn't that kind of horse. I am only commenting that while I am leaning in the direction of him being not "that kind of horse" I wish he wasn't continually pushed and bumped every few strides through-out most of the race.

And a jock knows what kind of horse he has at the break. And yes, if you have a rank horse, one of the strategies is to pull him outside, closer or not. What choice does a jock have anyway. If he doesn't get him to settle he has no chance anyway.

At Saratoga going 9f the run into the first turn is short. If you are parked outside you have to go inside or you will lose a ton of ground and having a closer wide on BOTH turns is suicide regardless if the horse is relaxed or not. He gets the horse over to the rail and thats when the horse starts freaking out. Watch the replay. Either way, the jock's move is to try to get him to relax BEHIND horses as his horse was keen to go. This did not go very well obviously. I realize that questionable rides have doomed Kent his whole career but in this case I dont think he did anything wrong.

As far as Charitable Man, that was his third two turn effort and each one has been poor. Granted, one was the belmont and the other was at keeneland so one can hardly draw any conclusions. He was wide on both turns although i cant see Garcia as having much of a choice either besides maybe being closer to the lead.

Everyone sees it differently and I understand that. To me, it just seems that people are often quick to declare jockey error. Myself, I am quick to claim track bias when further inspection proves the track to be fair. Either way, we will certainly see our share of bad rides and biases this meet. Cheers!