Proposed weight breaks for horses not using lasix

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I dont believe that this is significant. The half life of bute is short enough where it doesnt really matter when giving a shot 24 hours out. I race in different jurisdictions under both rules and the prerace protocol is the same.

You have a good point. It interests me that you say that the pre-race timing is the same in both jurisdictions, and that doesn't make the rare positive? That's good. I was thinking based upon the half-life, and the pharmacologic effective dose, I would have thought this would cause another 8-hour add-on pre-race timing as to when you'd give it. And that would affect those lower-level warrior $5K claimers, with their chronic aches and pains, that need their residual bute to do their jobs well. Good to know you say that won't matter.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Well, from two days ago:

"Earlier on Sunday, Uzbekistan's only gymnast at the Games, Luiza Galiulina, was temporarily suspended after her first sample came in positive for the drug Furosemide, often used as a masking agent for other banned substances."

Yes, but that's a long-ago holdover human drug rules, based upon long-ago crude testing techniques. Now our detection methods are so sophisticated we can detect 99.999% of illegal substances through (in spite of) a lasix-induced diuresis (diluting the urine to make an illegal drug less detectable, as it's less concentrated) That did not used to be the case 30 years ago.

[Riot]

I'm not against giving weight breaks to horses running without lasix.

If owners are going to choose not to use this therapeutic drug to protect their horses lungs, then maybe we should try to protect these horses in other ways.

There are multiple causes of EIPH, it's a disease of all horses, not just TB race horses. And we know that decreasing the severity of exercise (the pounding, the gasping for air, the effort) decreases EIPH in any horse.

So the weight break proposition is more to help prevent these non-lasix horses from bleeding as they are now unprotected from the best drug we have to help them, IMO.

If we were doing this scientifically, worried about the actual health and welfare of the horse, related to EIPH, instead of as knee-jerk reaction to "drug problem", there are other things that could be considered:

First, diagnosis of lasix eligibility could be done only by an official track vet, not the trainer/owners hired vet, if using endoscopy.

This would require the tracks to hire at least two veterinarians to be present during all racing hours, morning and afternoon, to scope horses as needed.

This will, however, miss a great majority of EIPH, which we know is undetectable on crude endoscopy, yet present in 97% of horses.

So I would add a rule, that any horse not racing on lasix must wear a FLAIR nasal strip. This is based upon the proven efficacy of the FLAIR strip to help decrease EIPH. If the point is to decrease bleeding, do it.

This will will allow more of our horses to suffer lung damage, however.

Again: I join the rest of the overwhelming of the veterinary community who supports the use of appropriate therapeutic medications on race day, for the improved safety and welfare of the race horse. That means lasix use, not just in the mornings on those days a horse works at speed, but during races, too.

It's absurd to protect the horse's lungs in the mornings, and deny them therapeutic protection in the afternoons.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Well, from two days ago:

"Earlier on Sunday, Uzbekistan's only gymnast at the Games, Luiza Galiulina, was temporarily suspended after her first sample came in positive for the drug Furosemide, often used as a masking agent for other banned substances."

Yeah gymnastics. Note it wasnt called a performance enhancing drug. Jockeys arent tested for lasix.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

You have a good point. It interests me that you say that the pre-race timing is the same in both jurisdictions, and that doesn't make the rare positive? That's good. I was thinking based upon the half-life, and the pharmacologic effective dose, I would have thought this would cause another 8-hour add-on pre-race timing as to when you'd give it. And that would affect those lower-level warrior $5K claimers, with their chronic aches and pains, that need their residual bute to do their jobs well. Good to know you say that won't matter.

While I'm sure that given the lower allowable amount there is an increase risk for a positive it still is relatively low. I know that in some jurisdictions you could give 5cc bute by 4 am on the day of the race and you were ok. The lower allowable level takes that away which is a good thing.

[Cannon Shell]

I still dont see why anyone thinks there will some some benefit to racing if horses do not race on lasix?

The breeding theory is ludicious. The expense theory is completely wrong. The idea that lasix somehow prevents the playing field from being level is pointless. Comparing racing in other countries to ours using a single factor like lasix is crazy. Getting rid of lasix wont help racing in this country one bit and in the short term will create more issues than it solves especially considering it doesnt really solve anything.

I just wish the fervor that some who stump for the elimination of lasix would be used for real issues that need to be addressed.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Yeah gymnastics. Note it wasnt called a performance enhancing drug. Jockeys arent tested for lasix.

Of course they aren't. I doubt they are tested for much of anything.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Of course they aren't. I doubt they are tested for much of anything.

Alcohol for one, see Desormeaux, Kent

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Alcohol for one, see Desormeaux, Kent

Well, yes, I know, but that is a safety issue, just like narcotics.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Well, yes, I know, but that is a safety issue, just like narcotics.

Well they probably wouldnt need steroids

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I still dont see why anyone thinks there will some some benefit to racing if horses do not race on lasix?

The breeding theory is ludicious. The expense theory is completely wrong. The idea that lasix somehow prevents the playing field from being level is pointless. Comparing racing in other countries to ours using a single factor like lasix is crazy. Getting rid of lasix wont help racing in this country one bit and in the short term will create more issues than it solves especially considering it doesnt really solve anything.

I just wish the fervor that some who stump for the elimination of lasix would be used for real issues that need to be addressed.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Alcohol for one, see Desormeaux, Kent

Did he actually get a test or was someone at the track listening to ATR that one time during the happy hour interview?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

Did he actually get a test or was someone at the track listening to ATR that one time during the happy hour interview?

The old breathalyzer. Though I think they turn the meter off for the steeplechase guys.

I dont think he was even in the country for the famous At the races inerview

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Riot

If you read the PDF proposal, the first thing that becomes clear is the overuse of words such as "perceived" advantage of lasix, etc.

Yes, because there isn't any factual scientific support. If there was, they'd quote it.

Secondly, this phrase stands out as the first sentence in their summary:



"High Risk".

When you know the high risks of eliminating lasix, against the advice of the veterinary medical community, and you acknowledge those risks as the first sentence in your summary conclusion - why are you persisting in trying to do so?

Again: racing has many problems with illegal medications. They need to be addressed. Furosemide, protecting athletic horses from lung damage, most certainly isn't one of them.

My take is that you are giving too much consideration to the word potential, treating it as if the high risks that at stake are GOING to happen and not potentially MAY happen. I feel like every time they send these horses out to race, they are potentially at high risk for a lot of things, not limited to bleeding but also including death. A bad step can be taken at any time. Should we not run them at all because of the potential for life ending injury? I play basketball and used to play at a fairly high level. I have seen numerous injuries to knees and ankles, some to the extent that they ended careers. Should all players wear knee and ankle braces to protect against the potential of that happening? Should I wear eye goggles to protect against the potential for getting a finger in the eye? I don't know if I'm in the majority or the minority on this but I just don't see the need to automatically assume that the horse needs something or should have it to protect against something that they may not even suffer from.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I still dont see why anyone thinks there will some some benefit to racing if horses do not race on lasix?

The breeding theory is ludicious. The expense theory is completely wrong. The idea that lasix somehow prevents the playing field from being level is pointless. Comparing racing in other countries to ours using a single factor like lasix is crazy. Getting rid of lasix wont help racing in this country one bit and in the short term will create more issues than it solves especially considering it doesnt really solve anything.

I just wish the fervor that some who stump for the elimination of lasix would be used for real issues that need to be addressed.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

My take is that you are giving too much consideration to the word potential, treating it as if the high risks that at stake are GOING to happen and not potentially MAY happen.

Well, I am basing my wording on my knowledge of how they appear to be parsing their words carefully, reflective of the knowledge we have of EIPH.

We know that 93-97% of horses that race have evidence of EIPH via tracheal wash. That is an indisputable, repeatedly-proven fact.

It's called "Exercise-Induced" pulmonary hemorrhage because ... it's associated with exercise, with exertion, in all horses and all breeds. It's a horse thing. It's not a racing thing.

Thus, IMO, therefor, if we want to race them, we should help them do it in a manner reflective of the best medicine can offer to the health and welfare of these athletes. We do research into how to make their bones strong, so they don't break down, we do research into how to prevent damage to their lungs from EIPH - we need to use our medical knowledge to help these animals we are responsible for.

We exercise, race and train young race horses in a manner PETA hates and fights against, because we know it lengthens careers and decreases bone/fracture breakdown rates. We use lasix because we know it decreases both the incidence and severity of EIPH.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Well they probably wouldnt need steroids

I know, which is why the whole topic was pretty pointless. I would bet my last nickel at least a few have tried though.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I know, which is why the whole topic was pretty pointless. I would bet my last nickel at least a few have tried though.

I'm sure PVal has tried. Heard that causes hair loss which he is a big fan of.