Investors lose a trillion dollars in one day

[Riot]

Originally Posted by joeydb

If you want to sit on your ass and collect a check from government, originally taxed from someone else's hard work - MOVE ELSEWHERE!

That's not what Social Security is. Stop misrepresenting it. Social Security recipients CONTRIBUTED to their own government check. They PAID INTO THE SYSTEM. It's no giveaway. Geeshus cripes.

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by Riot

That's not what Social Security is. Stop misrepresenting it. Social Security recipients CONTRIBUTED to their own government check. They PAID INTO THE SYSTEM. It's no giveaway. Geeshus cripes.

I was directing that at Welfare and generalized handout programs. Yes, we are forced at gunpoint to "contribute" to the Ponzi scheme known as Social Security.

Our losses, in the form of the unrealized growth of the confiscated funds that would otherwise be invested, are all too real.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by joeydb

I'm saying it doesn't help, and by definition those on it aren't moving the economy forward. And I'm saying it's among the first things to be reduced as expenses go.

It doesn't account for ALL of our debt...just $9,000,000,000,000 up until 2004. More than that now.

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=2807

I hate to break it to you "failed Reaganomics" followers, but unemployment benefits and welfare most certainly DO move the economy forward during a recession, by providing ready cash that is spent in the economy immediately. The churn keeps everyone afloat while the economy recovers. That is common financial knowledge. What "by definition" are you talking about? Not any accepted financial definition.

The right wing wants to take away any help for poor starving children. 25% of the children in this "great country, where the millions of unemployed are just unmotivated" are living in poverty. You're on that bandwagon. Think about that. Is that what you envision America to be? Where we have fellow citizens homeless and starving and left on their own?

Because magically, somehow, they could all be rich if they would only get off the public dole and work because you did it? You think that is possible? That's what you want, your vision for America?

Do you think it is even doable any more, in the country where the Republican party has spent the last 40 years trying to disassemble the middle class and remove any remote help from fellow citizens to give someone a chance? Do you realize that the country isn't what it was after WWII, as far as opportunity? That the wage disparity is too great, that real wages are too stagnant, the "job creators" have taken their jobs out of this country? That what we live in today is the "new reality", and you'd better get used to it?

That's disgusting. We are better than that. We are one of the richest nations in the world, and we treat our citizens better than that.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by joeydb

I was directing that at Welfare and generalized handout programs. Yes, we are forced at gunpoint to "contribute" to the Ponzi scheme known as Social Security.

Our losses, in the form of the unrealized growth of the confiscated funds that would otherwise be invested, are all too real.

I laughed so hard that coffee came out my nose. Yeah leave everything up to mom and pop because everyone knows how to handle their finances. Not that the sharks would find a way to separate you from your self directed SS funds. SS would be fine if our wonderful presidents didn't use it as their personal cookie jar over the last 25 years.

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by Riot

I hate to break it to you "failed Reaganomics" followers, but unemployment benefits and welfare most certainly DO move the economy forward during a recession, by providing ready cash that is spent in the economy immediately. The churn keeps everyone afloat while the economy recovers. That is common financial knowledge. What "by definition" are you talking about? Not any accepted financial definition.

The right wing wants to take away any help for poor starving children. 25% of the children in this "great country, where the unemployed are just unmotivated" are living in poverty. You're on that bandwagon. Think about that.

Nine trillion isn't peanuts. And that's a BIG chunk of the 14.5 Trillion.

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by jms62

I laughed so hard that coffee came out my nose. Yeah leave everything up to mom and pop because everyone knows how to handle their finances. Not that the sharks would find a way to separate you from your self directed SS funds. SS would be fine if our wonderful presidents didn't use it as their personal cookie jar over the last 25 years.

So we're all too stupid to invest our own money, or just some of us?

Tell you what - how about an "opt out." You don't collect any more from me, and I won't hit you up for a couple of hundred a month in 30 years either.

Deal?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by joeydb

I was directing that at Welfare and generalized handout programs.

You mean food for starving children living in poverty? You mean Medicaid for the permanently disabled and sick who can never work? You mean a couple hundred dollars a week so someone can live in roach-infested public housing?

Yeah, some of us want to contribute to making America better, for helping those in need, in poverty, in trouble.

You're bitter and whining and complaining about the theft of pennies of your riches. You want all the benefits of this great country, all the first-world freebies like highways and running water and no fear of invasion, without donating a thing to the cause of society as a whole. That's selfish and lazy and self-centered.

Guess what? The Supreme Court long ago ruled that what's good for one, is good for all (being dismantled by the upper class, but that's another problem) So contribute your taxes, be happy you were fortunate enough to be born in America, and try working to make this country better, not trying actively to take away from the least among us who are not as fortunate as we.

Screw that. Move to another country. Maybe one where getting $100 a week is vast riches and you could appreciate the need.

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by Riot

Yeah, some of us want to contribute to making America better, for helping those in need, in poverty, in trouble.

Ever hear of charities? Get the gun out of everybody else's back. The things paid for by taxation should be few. National defense, law enforcement, and the court system. A few others. The bloated gigantic government must be slashed to the bone. We can't afford it any longer.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by joeydb

Nine trillion isn't peanuts. And that's a BIG chunk of the 14.5 Trillion.

Not in the real world. Only in scary right-wing panic land.

14 trillion = national debt

3.6 trillion - social security trust fund

4.0 trillion - Bush unfunded wars, unfunded Medicare Rx bill, other policies (ongoing expense)
3.0 trillion - Bush unfunded tax cuts (ongoing expense)

2.0 trillion - tax loss due to recession

1.4 trillion - Obama policies, temporary stimulus, etc (most paid back)

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Riot

You mean food for starving children living in poverty? You mean Medicaid for the permanently disabled and sick who can never work? You mean a couple hundred dollars a week so someone can live in roach-infested public housing?

Yeah, some of us want to contribute to making America better, for helping those in need, in poverty, in trouble.

You're bitter and whining and complaining about the theft of pennies of your riches. You want all the benefits of this great country, all the first-world freebies like highways and running water and no fear of invasion, without donating a thing to the cause of society as a whole. That's selfish and lazy and self-centered.

Guess what? The Supreme Court long ago ruled that what's good for one, is good for all (being dismantled by the upper class, but that's another problem) So contribute your taxes, be happy you were fortunate enough to be born in America, and try working to make this country better, not trying actively to take away from the least among us who are not as fortunate as we.

Screw that. Move to another country. Maybe one where getting $100 a week is vast riches and you could appreciate the need.

What, specifically are you doing to make this country better?
Besides this forum of course.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by joeydb

Ever hear of charities? Get the gun out of everybody else's back. The things paid for by taxation should be few. National defense, law enforcement, and the court system. A few others. The bloated gigantic government must be slashed to the bone. We can't afford it any longer.

Well, guess what? You are living in the wrong country. Your vision of changing America to adhere to your destruction of our society will never happen.

Try elsewhere. But most of the other first world countries collect more taxes than we do, and offer terrible things like 6 weeks vacation time, socialized medicine, government loans for business start ups, etc.

Guess you'll have to move to a second or third world country. Try South America.

And I don't know what ridiculous financial advice you are listening to, but our deficit is not our main problem right now.

[Riot]

[quote=Clip-Clop;798677]What, specifically are you doing to make this country better?
Besides this forum of course.[/QUOTE

I pay my taxes, I contribute to charities home and abroad, I vote, and I have my own business. I share what I have earned. I am grateful to this country and do not begrudge it one cent to help my fellow Americans.

What specifically are YOU doing, other than providing jobs to illegal undocumented workers and taking jobs from Americans, while accusing your fellow citizens of living off handouts and being lazy?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by joeydb

So we're all too stupid to invest our own money, or just some of us?

You could be the most brilliant investor in the world, but you were hammered in 2008 and hammered Friday. What the hell do you think happened to millions of older people living off their lifetimes earnings investments in retirement the past 10 years? Most people are smart enough to invest for their retirement, with Social Security as the supplement it is intended to be. What do you think happened to the value of their paid-off houses due to crap agencies like S & P selling crap as AAA value?

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by joeydb

Ever hear of charities? Get the gun out of everybody else's back. The things paid for by taxation should be few. National defense, law enforcement, and the court system. A few others. The bloated gigantic government must be slashed to the bone. We can't afford it any longer.

I think national parks should be kept through taxes also.

[Antitrust32]

[quote=Riot;798690]

Originally Posted by Riot

What specifically are YOU doing, other than providing jobs to illegal undocumented workers and taking jobs from Americans, while accusing your fellow citizens of living off handouts and being lazy?

[Clip-Clop]

[quote=Riot;798690]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

What, specifically are you doing to make this country better?
Besides this forum of course.[/QUOTE

I pay my taxes, I contribute to charities home and abroad, I vote, and I have my own business. I share what I have earned. I am grateful to this country and do not begrudge it one cent to help my fellow Americans.

What specifically are YOU doing, other than providing jobs to illegal undocumented workers and taking jobs from Americans, while accusing your fellow citizens of living off handouts and being lazy?

While this diatribe really does not deserve a response I will go ahead any way.
I pay my taxes too, and my matching portion of the taxes of my 1,2,3,4,5 American college graduate employees. I provide healthcare for them and their families. I donate a great deal of money, time and equipment to charity. I build smart home technologies into homes for wounded soldiers returning from combat so they can have a sense of independence. I also volunteer my "free time" to our local no-kill animal shelter.
I, however, will never be wealthy enough to be a liberal. I am though, very happy with my life and my work and hope to continue to be successful. I deserve it. I earned it.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

I think national parks should be kept through taxes also.

Living in a land of national parks, I have no real issue with them charging admission.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

While this diatribe really does not deserve a response I will go ahead any way.
I pay my taxes too, and my matching portion of the taxes of my 1,2,3,4,5 American college graduate employees. I provide healthcare for them and their families. I donate a great deal of money, time and equipment to charity. I build smart home technologies into homes for wounded soldiers returning from combat so they can have a sense of independence. I also volunteer my "free time" to our local no-kill animal shelter.

Good. So what was the point of your bringing it up? Do you have a scoring system? What is it? What counts as "making this country better" on an individual basis?

I, however, will never be wealthy enough to be a liberal. I am though, very happy with my life and my work and hope to continue to be successful. I deserve it. I earned it.

Interestingly, of the top 400 richest people in America, just under half consider themselves "liberal", and just under half "conservative". Seems that "liberals" value hard, independent work, and self-made success, just as much as "conservatives". But they seem to believe more in the Golden Rule, and helping others who are less fortunate than themselves.

[Danzig]

[quote=Riot;798575]

Originally Posted by joeydb

This is what liberals consider to be fairness. You work your ass off, and instead of getting principal plus interest, you get a modest payment per month until you croak, assuming it's solvent.[/QUOTE

If only you bothered with facts. The truth is, that most people get more out of Social Security and Medicare than they put in.
You know, that's why you have been told to scream it's broke?

You can't have it both ways

which is exactly why there needs to be real reform of ss, medicare, and medicaid. it's a continuing increase in spending-something has to be done with those programs, which take-what, half or more of the federal budget? that percentage continues to increase, which is one of the reasons we're having to rethink our budgeting, including tax increases.
it's not a matter of paying the money out-it's the fact that we can't continue to borrow to pay our bills, with us only paying down interest. sooner or later it becomes too big of a bill, much like all the people who treated their home equity lines of credit as an atm-and then couldn't believe the fallout.

our 'entitlement' programs (which shouldn't be called that, we pay for them) are becoming an ever-increasing part of the budget, and it's not going to get better unless there are changes made.
had the govt not borrowed those funds, they wouldn't have to borrow, with interest, to pay that money back out now-but that is water under the bridge.

[Danzig]

[quote=Riot;798587]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

And that just started next year. And all it needs is a little tweek, as we've done all the other times it was needed. Solvent for decades.

This attack on Social Security is nothing but ginned-up Republican attempts to destroy it and give Wall Street the funds. They've been trying to do it since Reagan created the fiction of the "welfare queen driving a Cadillac".

How did Wall Street do in 2008 with your retirement fund?
did they do Friday with your retirement fund?

Thank goodness all our citizens have the safety net of Social Security. It was a good idea started for widows and orphans, and it's good for all of us.

Anybody that doesn't like that should move to another country. The trouble is, all first-world countries, with better lifestyles than us - more vacation time, earlier retirement, better health care, better quality of living, less expensive housing and food, and better perceived happiness - tax more than us. You can be taxed less - move to a second or third world country.

A good society, a good country, isn't created in a vacuum of selfishness and independence from society.

it makes me laugh every time you say ss needs just a tweak-the whole budget needs an overhaul. everyone recognizes that entitlements are growing astronomically, and are becoming an ever larger drain on the fed. ss might only need a tweak, but the overall picture needs far, far more than that.