3/28 (GP): Florida Derby (G1); Swale (G2); Appleton (G3)

[justindew]

Originally Posted by Kasept

FYI. Quality Road's splits..

:23.3
:23.2 (:47.0-1st half)
:23.3 (:47.0-middle half))
:24.3 (:48.1-2nd half)
:12.2 (:37.0-Final 3f)

Yeah, I mean, that kind of looks like he had a lot left at the end after not-slow early and internal fractions.

I don't know. I can't help but think his win, as strong as it was, was at least slightly aided by the surface. If not, then people calling him a superhorse may not be speaking prematurely. And let's not forget this was his first start around two turns.

[NTamm1215]

I just wanted to throw into the discussion something that's not relevant to these horses going forward. But, wasn't Desormeaux's last ditch flop aboard Theregoesjojo funny? He had given the horse basically no chance to win through the opening six furlongs, so he decided to "check" when "interfered with" wll the while being left behind.

Sometimes I think Desormeaux ought to pay trainers to use him.

NT

[Bigsmc]

Originally Posted by justindew

I think this is a fair point, but really, would Quality Road have been able to "re-break" like that after those fractions on a normal GP surface?

If it was a "normal GP surface" as you call it, those fractions wouldn't have happened.

It would have been a different race with probably the same outcome.

[justindew]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

I just wanted to throw into the discussion something that's not relevant to these horses going forward. But, wasn't Desormeaux's last ditch flop aboard Theregoesjojo funny? He had given the horse basically no chance to win through the opening six furlongs, so he decided to "check" when "interfered with" wll the while being left behind.

Sometimes I think Desormeaux ought to pay trainers to use him.

NT

The horse is a fast-closing sprinter, but Kent's antics were laughable though not surprising.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by justindew

Yeah, I mean, that kind of looks like he had a lot left at the end after not-slow early and internal fractions.

I don't know. I can't help but think his win, as strong as it was, was at least slightly aided by the surface. If not, then people calling him a superhorse may not be speaking prematurely. And let's not forget this was his first start around two turns.

You're taking another step that I'm not and some other people also are not.

We've all agreed that the track was fast. It was faster than normal, without question. However, you're assuming that because it was fast, that it favored speed. I think. If so, that's where we disagree.

I wish CJ would weigh in because he brought up on the PA hall of fame board that while the numbers were fast his figures had the pace being pretty soft. That explains, in part, how QR seemed to have a ton left at the quarter pole.

What I would grant is that the time had a lot to do with the track, but I don't think the sped up track had much, if anything, to do with Quality Road's victory.

NT

[Travis Stone]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

I just wanted to throw into the discussion something that's not relevant to these horses going forward. But, wasn't Desormeaux's last ditch flop aboard Theregoesjojo funny? He had given the horse basically no chance to win through the opening six furlongs, so he decided to "check" when "interfered with" wll the while being left behind.

Sometimes I think Desormeaux ought to pay trainers to use him.

NT

TGJJ got a really nice setup in the FOY, was able to close while saving ground and was guaranteed to be overbet in the Fla. Derby as a result. He's another in a solid list of horses in this crop who will make the Kings Bishop a really good race this year.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by justindew

The horse is a fast-closing sprinter, but Kent's antics were laughable though not surprising.

His 'antics' were smart.

[justindew]

Originally Posted by Kasept

His 'antics' were smart.

I'm referring to him standing up and acting like he'd been interfered with. Are you?

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by justindew

I'm referring to him standing up and acting like he'd been interfered with. Are you?

Yes.. He knew his horse was about done. The top 2 did in fact pinch him off... Why not claim foul and hope the stand doesn't have the best view of it and gets it wrong? Wasn't going to happen in a race like this, but in an everyday situation, had a horse in Jojo's scenario finished better, he might very well get a move-up from the stews. I thought it was pretty cheeky and clever even though it wasn't going to go anywhere. It also endears you to the trainer/owner who know from a move like this that you're thinking about their interests.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Yes.. He knew his horse was about done. The top 2 did in fact pinch him off... Why not claim foul and hope the stand doesn't have the best view of it and gets it wrong? Wasn't going to happen in a race like this, but in an everyday situation, had a horse in Jojo's scenario finished better, he might very well get a move-up from the stews. I thought it was pretty cheeky and clever even though it wasn't going to go anywhere. It also endears you to the trainer/owner who know from a move like this that you're thinking about their interests.

Their interests? Come on Steve.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Their interests? Come on Steve.

Well, his own as well. But plenty of guys just hop off and wouldn't have thought twice.

[slotdirt]

I seem to recall someone involved with Hossy's mystery horse galloping Easy Goer in the mornings, but I might be remembering that wrong.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I seem to recall last year a horse with a similar situation as Dunkirk. He needed earnings and they chose to run the horse at a track that is generally biased towards early speed. The horse threw in a clunker and after the race the owner of said horse complained that the track wasn't fair. Now, to be fair, his comments were not intended to be made public, but they unfortunately were. Is there a difference here?

Pletcher, the most visable and most industry-promoted conditioner in the sport, is supposed to be gracious about the situation. Owners can say whatever they want for the most part. Some you appreciate and understand better than others. Jess Jackson is a good example. He says ridiculous things about Curlin's legacy, and you nod and say "uh huh" because he knows nothing about the history of the sport.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

I seem to recall someone involved with Hossy's mystery horse galloping Easy Goer in the mornings, but I might be remembering that wrong.

Exactly. Warren is another guy who knows very little and is led around by the decisions of 'advisors'.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by Kasept

His grousing was laughable. He's supposed to be the "ulimate professional horse trainer", and if that's the case, you acknowledge the winner and move on. During the 'vintage' Pletcher era, Dunkirk may have been ready to run a third big race in a relatively short time... Alas, those halcyon days are gone. The salad days as it were... Maybe DougS can pull the info up, but I'd guess that Pletcher has benefitted dozens of times from 'big day' racetracks when his horses would 're-break' at the top of the stretch and power away from fields. (Remember all those 4-5 winners that have largely disappeared from his shed?) Didn't hear him whine like a 4 year old about those surfaces.

Perhaps I just don't hold Pletcher to the standards many others do. I expected him to make remarks like that. I would not have predicted the specific remarks, but they don't surprise me at all. I wouldn't think about it either way. There is no doubt that he has benefitted from the same circumstances -- but, the big difference? His horse got beat, so all bets are off so to speak. Why the surprise here?

For the most part I agree. I guess our reactions and the surprise factor is just different.

As far as "vintage" Pletcher, I don't know, yeah the dominance was there but there were also numerous other players ready to take the field. "Back in the day" -- would he/they have raced him back and looked to get into the Derby field? I don't know. I don't play the "what would they do" hypothetically game that well. It's far to hard in the claiming game, LOL.

Regardless, at this point it's all supposition.

Eric

[ELA]

Originally Posted by Danzig

after reading what pletcher had said before the race, i don't expect they run him again.

I agree all things being equal. I just don't know anything about the decision making process, attitudes, mindset, etc. involved with the people in that camp. I don't know Todd, nor do I know the owners. However, often, the owners play the game very differently than anyone else. OTOH, they have no one to answer to. The conversation just goes 'round and 'round.

Eric

[justindew]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Yes.. He knew his horse was about done. The top 2 did in fact pinch him off... Why not claim foul and hope the stand doesn't have the best view of it and gets it wrong? Wasn't going to happen in a race like this, but in an everyday situation, had a horse in Jojo's scenario finished better, he might very well get a move-up from the stews. I thought it was pretty cheeky and clever even though it wasn't going to go anywhere. It also endears you to the trainer/owner who know from a move like this that you're thinking about their interests.

What if he had cost the horse 3rd?

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Kasept

FYI. Quality Road's splits..

:23.3
:23.2 (:47.0-1st half)
:23.3 (:47.0-middle half))
:24.3 (:48.1-2nd half)
:12.2 (:37.0-Final 3f)

those are some good finishing fractions... Didnt Cannon mention that there was a big tail wind on the back streach? Wouldnt that mean the wind was in their faces for the ride home? If so those are real quick fractions IMO.

[TheSpyder]

I think head winds are in their faces. And tail winds are...well you get it.

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

those are some good finishing fractions... Didnt Cannon mention that there was a big tail wind on the back streach? Wouldnt that mean the wind was in their faces for the ride home? If so those are real quick fractions IMO.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by TheSpyder

I think head winds are in their faces. And tail winds are...well you get it.

thats what i said... Cannon mentioned the tail wind was on the backstreach..

so wouldnt there be a head wind in the home streach?