Pletcher BC positive; Hearing pending

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by reese

Pletcher is second in the country in 2008 in purses won.
Exactly, what does this "big drop" off include...only G-1 races ?


2008 Stats:
Starts
1056
1st-2nd-3rd
199-143-136
Earnings (Rank)
$13,765,935 (2)
Win % (In-The-Money %)
18% (45%)

He is measured against his own standard. The drop off in purse money is dramatic

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Very true. I have noticed that he is not getting as good as horses as he was though. In 2004 and 2005 almost every really good horse sold at the Keeneland sale that stayed in the us went to Pletcher. Things have turned in that respect though. In some respects the same thing happened to baffert a few years earlier. A lot of big owners got tired of being second fiddle in the barn and moved. The combination of things may finally be catching up.

This is something that I have always thought about as well..I mean..How much does he really "train"? Maybe it's just me, but the appeal of having Pletcher as your trainer would fade quickly if you are just a number to him. Maybe he runs a very hands on barn and is consistantly in touch with ALL his owners, but that seems unrealistic

[philcski]

Originally Posted by GBBob

This is something that I have always thought about as well..I mean..How much does he really "train"? Maybe it's just me, but the appeal of having Pletcher as your trainer would fade quickly if you are just a number to him. Maybe he runs a very hands on barn and is consistantly in touch with ALL his owners, but that seems unrealistic

I feel the same way. He has great help but that can only go so far

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Riot

The RMTC has disbanded. There is no need for it. Hundreds of thousands of dollars, and years of tedious research, are saved.

Horseplayers on the internet will now officially decide which trainers are juicers, and which horses have been doped.

Voting will be done fans, from their home computers via a soon-to-be-announced website.

Voting will close the Monday after a weekend of racing, at midnight.

Trainer suspensions will be announced by noon every Tuesday.

With all due respect, Please dont be ignorant Riot. None of the current drug tests can compete with the chemists.

And when a drug test can pick up a substance... those substances are altered so they can be used again with out detection.

Giving the trainers the benefit of the doubt is not the right way to go here..

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by sumitas

I don't think Curlin or Big Brown were as effective after being removed from the steroids . Pletcher's record indicates the pressure is on him to stay clean . If racing ever gets on top of the doping it will level the playing field . Maybe that's a better way to put it .

in theory this would be great...

but how can you get on top of the doping when new drugs can and will be created that cant be tested for?

It will be a never ending cycle.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

That's just mean and crazy talk man!

Until TP comes out and announces to the world that he is a juicer, I refuse to believe that it's even possible!

I refuse!!

No! No! No! No! NO!

Lalalalalalalala. I can't hearrrr youuuu!

fine work sir

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Danzig

and people wonder why some cheat-look at the constant harping on pletcher right now. maybe he wasn't clean, and is now-if so, good for him. or maybe he was clean all along, but had better stock. or maybe he sold his soul, and then changed his mind. who knows?
but i think it's bizarre that he gets tons of grief, with what-two positives now, one for an antiboiotic, the other for a level now legal? meanwhile, the man with 13 X's more the positives is said to be the eclipse fave, and no one says a thing.

STOP IT, 'Zig. This is a runaway jury, and you, like me, are now just standing in the way, impeding the rush to judgment.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

So you think the huge drop off in grade 1 wins this year is just a coincidence?

I think that I am an outsider to Pletcher's organization, and I don't have access to remotely enough information to make even a half-azzed guess. The drop in G1 wins at best is a symptom. Not a diagnosis.

[parsixfarms]

Pletcher's decline started at Saratoga in 2007, just three weeks after the KHRA announced that they had found the cobra venom in Biancone's barn. I don't know whether that's a coincidence or not, or whether the impending steroid bans may be having an impact on his barn's current performance.

As for Pletcher's numbers this year, it is clear that in New York he has started no where near the number of horses that he once did. It seems like his percentages are skewed based on a high percentage of winners that he had at tracks like Arlington this past summer; in New York, he's almost become a throwout. (Not yet plugged in to Formulator, I'd be interested to know what his stats in NY are with non-claiming starters, as my recollection is that, at Belmont Spring and Saratoga, a fairly high perecentage of his winners were with claimers.)

[Linny]

The fact is that testing is always one step behind. They cannot test for what they don't know and the chemists are always cooking something up.

Tests are not a matter of taking the sample and seeing what's in it. They test for specific chemicals and reactions indicating the presence or absence of a chemical. By definition, the testing industry is always reactive, not pro-active. Unless tyey have reason to suspect a certain compound is turning up in samples, it wont be found because they wont look for it. They only find what they look for and they only look for what they know.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

He is measured against his own standard. The drop off in purse money is dramatic

The day we start using a drop in purse winnings as great evidence that a trainer "stopped doping", is ... well, today, on the internet.

That, and knowing, "No horse can make a 20-point Beyer improvement without illegal means" is all we need to know about you horse trainer guys.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by Riot

The day we start using a drop in purse winnings as great evidence that a trainer "stopped doping", is ... well, today, on the internet.

That, and knowing, "No horse can make a 20-point Beyer improvement without illegal means" is all we need to know about you horse trainer guys.

I think you read that wrong. The drop in purses means there is less money to earn, regardless of the way he is doing it.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Linny

The fact is that testing is always one step behind. They cannot test for what they don't know and the chemists are always cooking something up.

Tests are not a matter of taking the sample and seeing what's in it. They test for specific chemicals and reactions indicating the presence or absence of a chemical. By definition, the testing industry is always reactive, not pro-active. Unless tyey have reason to suspect a certain compound is turning up in samples, it wont be found because they wont look for it. They only find what they look for and they only look for what they know.

Did you listen, last week I think it was, to Steve's ATR discussion with the head of RMTC? The level of proactivity was exactly what was discussed. It most certainly can be done.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Scav

I think you read that wrong. The drop in purses means there is less money to earn, regardless of the way he is doing it.

Naw, you read what I wrote wrong. I said stopped doping ...

[Linny]

Riot, I missed the show. What day was it? I'll go listen.

I don't doubt that it CAN be done, but it will require alot of the testing labs involved in terms of taking a look for suspicious reactions etc.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

It's real tough to give an opinion huh?

lol.... kind of like somer with the 'how could they punish OJ like that'

[CSC]

Lukas hasn't done much since Pletcher left the assistant's role.

Originally Posted by Riot

STOP IT, 'Zig. This is a runaway jury, and you, like me, are now just standing in the way, impeding the rush to judgment.

Yeah right. You'd already be in the gas chamber.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by GBBob

This is something that I have always thought about as well..I mean..How much does he really "train"? Maybe it's just me, but the appeal of having Pletcher as your trainer would fade quickly if you are just a number to him. Maybe he runs a very hands on barn and is consistantly in touch with ALL his owners, but that seems unrealistic

He is on top of the horses in the NY loop pretty well I would believe. But as is the case with other trainers with large divisions spread out all over the country he can only be in so many places at once. I think like any other business the more important clients get more attention though his communication outlets with his owners seem modern (website, email), some people prefer to actually talk to the trainer himself.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Yeah right. You'd already be in the gas chamber.

And I'm sure there are still some people out there that think OJ is still innocent. Damn circumstantial evidence...