Penn National arrests

[OldDog]

Allowing that I am unfamiliar, thankfully, with grand jury indictments, I notice that the indictments against Webb and Rogers refer specifically to one alleged act of injecting a specific horse, while the indictment against Wells lays out a more general scenario with no references to specific dates, horses or medications. Are both situations "normal" for grand jury indictments?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You seem to be missing the point. The impact on racing and the fact that there has been little or poor oversight isnt in question (Though 2 of the 4 were caught by state investigators)

My point is that don't they have to prove their case more than saying "oh they were going to give their horse an "illegal" treatment", that's fraud? Alan Pincus who apparently is going to be defending at least one of the accused has already made the statement that these are administrative issues, not criminal ones. Again I am not a lawyer but you'd have to believe that the burden of proving fraud has to be more than what we know considering the thousands of similar cases over a long time period haven't been criminalized.

it is possible that it's a stretch to say it's fraud, but since the cheating can gyp bettors, i can see why they're trying to go that route. you're betting based on info given, and assuming a level field. cheaters are not just affecting race outcome, but wagering outcome.
it reminds me of capone. they couldn't prove criminal conspiracy, but they got him on tax evasion.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

And as far as the clocker is concerned is faulty equibase information really a felony?

taking bribes to falsify info is. there's error, and there's intentionally conspiring. did they do so to defraud bettors? no, sounds more like they were trying to have works for horses who didn't work as a way to get around track officials.....but when doing so, they defrauded bettors. it wasn't intent, but it was a side effect of that conspiracy.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

You are overlooking the part that the participants may well be betting too. So it isn't just the purse amount that matters. It may very well be that some of those bettors are the people charged.

true. manipulating odds....could have been something else they were doing.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by OldDog

Allowing that I am unfamiliar, thankfully, with grand jury indictments, I notice that the indictments against Webb and Rogers refer specifically to one alleged act of injecting a specific horse, while the indictment against Wells lays out a more general scenario with no references to specific dates, horses or medications. Are both situations "normal" for grand jury indictments?

yes. they are seated to look at all gathered evidence to see if charges should be placed it could be one, a couple, or hundreds of charges..

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Despite the rhetoric from the uninformed, the vast majority of medication is used properly and isn't "abuse" or illicit. The problem that I have talked about for years is that the authorities have failed to give us clear and undisputed schedules for most completely legal medications. The Mid-Atlantic plan is better than what we have had but still is very limited in its scope and number of allowable medications. Just using something relatively innocuous like stomach ulcers as an example, the new plan only allows 1 type of ulcer medication to be used and that is the $30 a day medication. There are many over the counter meds available far cheaper (zantac, carafate and tagament for example) and nearly as effective that are now "illegal" for use. It is easy to say that you should just stick to the only allowable medication but only about 5% of the horses in training are worth enough to spend $1000 a month on just ulcer medication. So what does a trainer who doesnt have ability to put every horse on gastrogard do? Try to treat them using small dosages? Withdraw long enough out (if we had any idea what that really is) and switch to gastrogard as the race came closer? Ignore the issue? Treat with aloe vera or other "natural" product which most likely wont work and because there is no FDA supplementation oversight, might contain something that will test?

The risk is that a misdemeanor charge of "race fixing" will prevent you from being licensed for a long time, if ever. Being that some over the counter ulcer med could trigger that charge and the fact that none of us can absolutely control everything that our horses ingest 24 hours a day who will want to take the chance? I personally have had 2 positive tests in 14 years (2000+ straters) and neither was a med that was even given close to the withdrawl time. One was for a minute amount of tranquilizer that we had no record of giving to the horse in question for 3 weeks prior to the race and the other situation was explained in an earlier post. To think that those would be potentially be considered criminal cases is troubling.

Any Tranquilizers left?

[declansharbor]

I liken it to the S&P knowingly giving faulty ratings on risky investment ventures.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by Danzig

taking bribes to falsify info is. there's error, and there's intentionally conspiring. did they do so to defraud bettors? no, sounds more like they were trying to have works for horses who didn't work as a way to get around track officials.....but when doing so, they defrauded bettors. it wasn't intent, but it was a side effect of that conspiracy.

So are you saying that a trainer that decides to work his horse on the slow side purposely, (to probably inflate his price next time out) should possibly be charged with a felony too?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

So are you saying that a trainer that decides to work his horse on the slow side purposely, (to probably inflate his price next time out) should possibly be charged with a felony too?

of course not. and i'm not even saying anyone charged in these cases we're discussing should have been charged.
now, if the trainer works him slow and then pays the clocker to put in a false time....well, now we're in new territory.
if you work the horse and he has the time, it's for the bettor to decipher.
if you have a conspiracy, bribery, and willful intent, don't be surprised if there's a knock at the door.
there's a line, they crossed it. did the guy paying the clocker think about all this? probably not. but you can bet everyone is thinking about it now.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Any Tranquilizers left?

lol only Roofies

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Losing his job? Getting hefty fine? Lengthy suspension? Made ineligible to hold similar position again? Sure. Federal Felony? Not so sure.

I agree with that. I'm going to wait and see what these guys are actually convicted of and what the punishments are before I say much more. Things have run amok in this game far too long, and I'm guessing a few are going to be held up as scapegoats in an attempt to clean it up.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I agree with that. I'm going to wait and see what these guys are actually convicted of and what the punishments are before I say much more. Things have run amok in this game far too long, and I'm guessing a few are going to be held up as scapegoats in an attempt to clean it up.

that's what i'm figuring as well, that they are being used to set an example.
tracks are supposed to be controlled by their states commission. things have been allowed to slide for too long. there has to be consistent rules, and fitting punishment and fines. and jokers who repeatedly violate should be out of the sport. does racing really need patrick biancone for example? jeff mullins? asmussen? if it takes a few heads to roll to let people know they can't keep getting hands slapped and nothing more, so be it.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Duvalier

Are all those tracks that you keep saying are providing wrong timed races...even after you have said that you have brought it to their attention, committing a felony? That information is going straight to equibase, even though they know it is wrong and you know it is wrong. Is someone trying to deceive the betting public...they've been made aware yet wrong times continue to be submitted? Is someone betting those races and benefiting, knowing the times are wrong.

I'm just asking because you are obviously really tuned into the timing and numbers of races with Timeform. Do you think anyone can benefit betting these races, knowing the information is faulty?

I don't think this is the same thing, though of course I'm all for proper times making it into the PPs. While there are wrong times, I don't think anyone is doing it on purpose.

Now, in the Pacific Classic, there is 100% irrefutable proof the time is wrong, and yet they still stuck by it. If you back up the video from the finish line by the "official" time, the horses are still inside the stall. But those guys claim there is nothing "wrong" with the time, so I'm not sure what else you can do. Is it criminal that they are not very smart, at least in regards to timing races?

[dellinger63]

Saw that all except the clocker were released on a $25K unsecured bond and forfeiture of passports. All have no conditions other than David Wells who can drink but can't drink 'excessively'.

IMO Alan Pincus's email being kelso64200@yahoo.com is the most interesting tidbit coming out so far.

Oh and cheating to try and win a race is far different to cheating to try to lose a race. Just ask Pete Rose.

[PatCummings]

Originally Posted by Cardus

I am reading through this thread, and you have asked this question more than once.

The way I am reading it, you are using the word "felony" as synonymous with "serious crime" or a similar term.

A "felony" is defined, by the Federal government and many states, as a crime punishable by imprisonment for more than one year.

The term is not a matter of the relative severity of the illegal act itself, but as a matter of the potential sentence. (Clearly, the greater the relative severity of the crime, the more likely it will be classified as a felony.)

The question is - is it wire fraud?

As one would expect from reading the indictment, the feds clearly think it is, which justifies their involvement.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Cardus

I am reading through this thread, and you have asked this question more than once.

The way I am reading it, you are using the word "felony" as synonymous with "serious crime" or a similar term.

A "felony" is defined, by the Federal government and many states, as a crime punishable by imprisonment for more than one year.

The term is not a matter of the relative severity of the illegal act itself, but as a matter of the potential sentence. (Clearly, the greater the relative severity of the crime, the more likely it will be classified as a felony.)

Is this a crime that could potentially result in more than years worth of imprisonment for the accused?

Better?

[Danzig]

i guess we're going to find out.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Is this a crime that could potentially result in more than years worth of imprisonment for the accused?

Sure, why not? Where do you draw the line if this isn't worth a year?

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Sure, why not? Where do you draw the line if this isn't worth a year?

Apples and Oranges but Chicago politicians just decided a 3 year minimum instead of a year minimum for a gun crime is too much.

Guess it's a matter of opinion but I'd consider a gangbanger doing a drive-by or a felon in possession of a gun far more serious than David Wells injecting a horse or Clocker Danny turning in false works.

[Cannon Shell]

http://www.drf.com/news/court-dismis...l-trainer-webb