Greatest Living Racehorse?

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Not exactly.
Roses in May was a darn nice horse.
Krim was....umm....something else.

Lol

Sorry guys

Drugs...that was beyond facepalm.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

I thought your contention was that he was susceptible to pace

No, throughout I made a point of saying that he could be made vulnerable by "other quality speed". I wouldn't count Presidentialaffair amongst those (even if he should be, it wouldn't have mattered in the '04 Iselin--there was nobody behind capable of reaping the benefits).

If Roses In May and St. Liam were capable of giving GZ a battle, then certainly it's possible that another quality horse with a closing style would be a threat to him from behind. He never had to face such a scenario. The Iselin field was a joke, the Woodward was (suprisingly, I might add) a match race, and IMO the Classic was a merry-go-round affair.

GZ ran two races around two turns. One he stalked and one he wired. I can't draw any conclusions about vulnerability from either of those two races especially considering he beyered 128 and 124 respectively. What would make you think he couldn't have sat mid pack or even closed?

Ghostzapper was capable of running 3/4s in 1:08 and change. Typically, those horses don't sit in the back in route races. In his 3 routes he was never more than 1.5 away.

As for his two turn races, they were run under ideal conditions for him. Ironically, the Classic shouldn't have gone his way, and yet it did. It would have been interesting to see him overcome some unfavorable race dynamics routing. You can argue that he did in the Woodward, but at the same time, on the basis of BSF and winning margin, it exposed some chinks in the armor.

[dalakhani]

I don't know rolo about the expose thing. St liam ran the race of his life, it was a prep and the dynamics of the race didn't allow for gz to sit mid pack. He still won despite these factors. I think I would be more apt to concede your point if he had things all his way in the Woodward and was still life and death to win.

I know that you are talking routes but his most impressive race to me was the vosburgh. It's hard for me to believe that they couldn't put him back in a route if they wanted.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

I think I would be more apt to concede your point if he had things all his way in the Woodward and was still life and death to win.

I look at it the other way. If he had an ideal setup in the Woodward and only won by a smidge, I'd be more inclined to throw it out, thinking perhaps something was wrong with him or he simply didn't "fire". I think Ghostzapper was a great horse like most everyone else.

However, the BSF hints that GZ came back down to earth. Why would he have gone backwards? I think having to contest that fast pace with St. Liam is the most logical conclusion (or at least the most identifiable). It would have been interesting to see if a quality closer could have capitalized on that duel. Not sure who was around and in form at the time, Pleasantly Perfect, Perfect Drift, maybe even The Cliff's Edge or Choctaw Nation.

I know that you are talking routes but his most impressive race to me was the vosburgh. It's hard for me to believe that they couldn't put him back in a route if they wanted.

Yeah, the Vosburgh, at least visually, was his most impressive race. He always looked like he was going to get them in the stretch, but the way he poured it on late was ridiculous. However, he seemed like he had a lot more early speed when he came back, even at shorter distances, going by the Tom Fool and later the Met Mile.

[smartbid09]

Wow! Very hard to say who the best living horse is. I think that most would argue one of these five

Cigar
Ghostzapper
Curlin (Maybe his fans)
Zenyatta
Rachel Alexandra

(These are just off the top of my head - and I have no idea who the best horse is)

I don't know much about him but Sea The Stars looked like an absolute FREAK!

But what a great thread. I would love to hear what Steve Haskin's opinion on this is.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

However, the BSF hints that GZ came back down to earth.

But it was still a higher figure than Cigar ran in the '95 Woodward, or the '95 JCGC, or the '96 MassCap, or the '96 PacClassic.....which he lost....to Dare and Go.

This thread has turned into deconstructing all of Ghostzapper's wins. That's fine. But if we get back to comparing him to Cigar, don't Cigar's less than impressive performances in some of his wins (the '95 JCGC in particular) and some of his losses (the '96 PacClassic) bear some dissection as well?

In a way its a lot of hair-splitting. I think Cigar was an excellent horse, and I'd probably have him second on my list of living horses, but to me he never ran a race comparable to any of Ghostzapper's top performances. Cigar's '95 HGC and BCC were very good races, but I don't even think those two measure up to what GZ did in his last six races. For me that gives GZ the edge.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

If greatness is measured solely in terms of the imprint left on the sport, I think Zenyatta is unquestionably the greatest living racehorse. Thirty years from now, will we talking more about her or Cigar?

Again, it depends on how one defines "greatness".

You really believe Zenyatta left the biggest imprint on the sport.

Hands down.. Smarty Jones and Funny Cide left a much bigger imprint on the sport. Not even close! People actually watch and follow the triple crown races.

so if we are going by that, Smarty Jones is unquestionably the greatest living racehorse.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Don't you get it? The race was fixed so that Roses in May wouldn't pressure Ghostzapper early. Otherwise he totally would've run GZ into the ground.

I just watched that again, what a great field that was. Azeri ran huge too. Looked like a bit of pressure to me from RIM.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

You really believe Zenyatta left the biggest imprint on the sport.

Hands down.. Smarty Jones and Funny Cide left a much bigger imprint on the sport. Not even close! People actually watch and follow the triple crown races.

so if we are going by that, Smarty Jones is unquestionably the greatest living racehorse.

And you would have an argument although it seems that his stature gets worse with time instead of better. At the end of the day he didn't really "do" anything. Smarty was another three year old that fell just short of a triple crown and was retired early. He had a HUGE following but in reality his star lasted for two months.

I think Z will be discussed for better or worse for many years to come although not right now by me for fear of permanent banishment.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I look at it the other way. If he had an ideal setup in the Woodward and only won by a smidge, I'd be more inclined to throw it out, thinking perhaps something was wrong with him or he simply didn't "fire".

No "it was only a prep" and "he wasn't fully cranked" like with Blame and Fly Down when both were soundly defeated by Haynesfield without an ideal setup for them and a VERY ideal one for Haynesfield?

You know I'm messing with you - but I agree with you that Ghostzapper's performance in a narrow Woodward win was no worse or better a performance than his ruthlessly fast BC Classic win when he got a base on balls up front - JRV wisely pitched around him on Roses In May instead of dueling with a horse who would have run him into the ground.

To me - if Frankel did some pre-race manuvering to avoid a pace battle - who cares? He was a victim in the prior years Classic when P. Val drew outside of Medaglia D' Oro with Congaree - and basically made life a living hell for him in that race. I think Frankel knew MDO was a ton better than the winner and 3rd place horse in the '03 Classic ... and why let history possibly repeat itself with Ghostzapper when you can use reason to ensure that others see the light to both parties benefit?

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by smartbid09

Wow! Very hard to say who the best living horse is. I think that most would argue one of these five

Cigar
Ghostzapper
Curlin (Maybe his fans)
Zenyatta
Rachel Alexandra.

I think it would be very difficult to make a rational case for any of these three over Holy Bull. I imagine there is at least one irrational case that could be made, but on the whole I think Holy Bull easily bests those last three.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I only suggested he was vulnerable at classic distances.

As he started just 3 times at 9f or more (and even then only twice around 2 turns), the evidence is certainly scant.

But in the 2004 Woodward, where he was under pressure through fast fractions, Ghostzapper was life and death to edge an, up to that point, unheralded St. Liam.

In 3 of Ghostzapper's last 4 starts, he earned a Beyer speed figure of 122 or more. The only exception was the Woodward, where he recorded at 114.

GZ's 114 in the Woodward shouldn't be taken as any kind of negative move. How many extra lengths did GZ run around the final turn compared to his other route races? I'd have to re-watch the Woodward, but I think 6-8 extra lengths is a conservative estimate. How many Beyer points do 6-8 lengths translate to? 10-13? If so, then the 114 is the equivalent of a sweet-trip 124-127, which is on a par with GZ's other routes.

--Dunbar

[cakes44]

Originally Posted by miraja2

I think it would be very difficult to make a rational case for any of these three over Holy Bull. I imagine there is at least one irrational case that could be made, but on the whole I think Holy Bull easily bests those last three.

I'd seriously take Pleasantly Perfect over those last 3 horses listed, and he was certainly no all-time great. Heck, I'd take Smarty Jones over the last two.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

And you would have an argument although it seems that his stature gets worse with time instead of better. At the end of the day he didn't really "do" anything. Smarty was another three year old that fell just short of a triple crown and was retired early. He had a HUGE following but in reality his star lasted for two months.

I think Z will be discussed for better or worse for many years to come although not right now by me for fear of permanent banishment.

I just dont understand how Z will be discussed.

Outside of some horse racing folks debating her HOY status.. and maybe a newspaper here and there in California, she's already done being discussed.

And what did Zenyatta do that Smarty didnt? Z won a BC Classic... Smarty won a Kentucky Derby. Neither retired undefeated... both horses actually only lost their last race. While Zenyatta ran admirably in defeat, Smarty's Belmont elevated people's opinion of him... as he was burned in a speed dual and still managed a corageous 2nd at 1 1/2 miles. the horses he beat on the front (who werent slugs - Rock hard ten was probably better than Blame) RHT, Eddington, Purge.. were beat by a combined like 65 lengths or something.

In my mind, Smarty's legacy will outweigh Zenyatta's. People remember the Kentucky Derby. I still have some people when I ask them if they follow horse racing say "oh yeah I remember that one horse... whats his name? Smarty something?" A lot of people I meet, the only race horse name they can recall is Smarty Jones.

I respectfully disagree that Zenyatta will have a longer lasting legacy than Smarty Jones.

And, while Smarty Jones may not be the best stallion on the market, he still will sire 100 horses a year to be on the race track... Zenyatta will have one. That alone will keep Smarty Jones on people's mind more than Zenyatta.

In my opinion, people will remember Zenyatta as much as they remember Azeri.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by cakes44

I'd seriously take Pleasantly Perfect over those last 3 horses listed, and he was certainly no all-time great. Heck, I'd take Smarty Jones over the last two.

certainly Silver Charm.... is he still alive?

[Princess Doreen]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

certainly Silver Charm.... is he still alive?

Let's hope so - he's still in Japan. Would love to see him retire to Old Friends. Hope when the time comes they can get him back to the states.

[OldDog]

Originally Posted by Princess Doreen

Let's hope so - he's still in Japan. Would love to see him retire to Old Friends. Hope when the time comes they can get him back to the states.

http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/thoro...-in-japan.aspx

as well as Charismatic.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

GZ's 114 in the Woodward shouldn't be taken as any kind of negative move. How many extra lengths did GZ run around the final turn compared to his other route races? I'd have to re-watch the Woodward, but I think 6-8 extra lengths is a conservative estimate. How many Beyer points do 6-8 lengths translate to? 10-13? If so, then the 114 is the equivalent of a sweet-trip 124-127, which is on a par with GZ's other routes.

--Dunbar

spoken like someone who actually watched the race.

For the last time, Ghostzapper's running style was not headstrong or stubborn. His only quirk was that he didn't like dirt in his face. He was forwardly placed in his three route races (only one of which he led at first call) because it made sense in all three. In a race with a ton of quality speed, he could be taken off the pace so long as he was kept in the clear. This is apparent to anybody who has watched him run.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

For the last time, Ghostzapper's running style was not headstrong or stubborn. His only quirk was that he didn't like dirt in his face. He was forwardly placed in his three route races (only one of which he led at first call) because it made sense in all three. In a race with a ton of quality speed, he could be taken off the pace so long as he was kept in the clear. This is apparent to anybody who has watched him run.

Of course, no one ever said he was "headstrong" or "stubborn".

Nevertheless, please explain why it made sense for Ghostzapper to be up on the engine between St. Liam (12-1) and Presidentialaffair (37-1)--never mind Midway Road's brief 1/4 mile effort--through fractions of :45+ and 1:08+ in the Woodward if he could be positioned anywhere in a race (so long as he was in the clear, of course).

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Of course, no one ever said he was "headstrong" or "stubborn".

Nevertheless, please explain why it made sense for Ghostzapper to be up on the engine between St. Liam (12-1) and Presidentialaffair (37-1)--never mind Midway Road's brief 1/4 mile effort--through fractions of :45+ and 1:08+ in the Woodward if he could be positioned anywhere in a race (so long as he was in the clear, of course).

Give it up Rollo.

GZ had some Zenyatta fan like fans in his day that you could not discuss anything logically with.

I say that in the sense that I still believe GZ was an awesome horse, nor do I think the GZ fans were nearly as bad as the Zenyatta fans.