What is C BROWN UP TO?

Originally Posted by Riot

Sure - using the amazing super-chemists all these trainers employ, working at the top secret laboratories.

Yes because the testing is so super advanced that the trainers have to spend big money and go to the top secret laboratories in order to get an edge.

You're being a sensationalist for the hell of it when there is no need to be. Anti's post was nowhere near what you implied in your reply.

If you're having problems with drinking there are toll free numbers you can call.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

I would not put Maker and McL in the same sentence. I have never thought Kiaran's horses jump up in crazy ways. He gets legit stock.

Maker shows a 28% profit on the betting dollar in all turf route races this decade.

From 885 starters in route races this decade - he shows a 21.2% profit on the betting dollar.

From almost 1,100 career starts in turf routes .. McLaughlin shows a 14.5% profit on the betting dollar.


McLaughlin has real magic to him ... he almost won the Kentucky Derby with Closing Argument .. a horse who was the 20th choice in the betting .. even a bigger price than a sprinting rabbit only entered to ruin Bellamy Road.. and CA ran spectacularly well considering the pace of the race. He was just 2 lengths off of that 22.28 first quarter mile .. and the 1st, 3rd, and 4th place horses all rallied.

He managed to win a horse of the year with Invasor ... a horse from Uruguay who got utterly pummled by Discreet Cat in the UAE Derby.

He won a Breeders Cup F and M Turf with Lahudood .. a filly who went 1-for-7 in Europe and was beaten by Wingspan in an N1X alw on the grass at 10fs - four months later she won the Breeders Cup.

Intidab was beaten 11 consecutive times in Dubai when McLaughlin got him .. was beaten a pole in his first American start at huge odds. 3 months later he beats Artax in a Graded Stake at Saratoga with a 120 Beyer figure.

Just because the guy isn't getting claiming horses doesn't mean he's supposed to have magic numbers and get wild form reversals.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

??? There's plenty of pharmacologic research about the best time to give lasix. It wasn't a guess, it's based upon furosemides' half-life.

Ah no it was actually a guess.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Yes because the testing is so super advanced that the trainers have to spend big money and go to the top secret laboratories in order to get an edge.

You're being a sensationalist for the hell of it when there is no need to be. Anti's post was nowhere near what you implied in your reply.

If you're having problems with drinking there are toll free numbers you can call.

You missed again. Try another vein of personal attack.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Ah no it was actually a guess.

Sure. Okay.

Edit: for those that think there's no research on lasix in racehorses

PubMed. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez "furosemide" "equine" 173 hits. That's only the past seven years, not all years of published research previous to that - basic pharmacokinetics, initial use in the racing industry - is available online, one has to look it up the old-fashioned way. Some examples:

Pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of furosemide after oral administration to horses.

Detection, quantification, and pharmacokinetics of furosemide and its effects on urinary specific gravity following IV administration to horses.

Comparison of serum and urinary concentrations of clenbuterol with and without concomitant administration of furosemide in horses.

Detection of bicarbonate administration (milkshake) in standardbred horses.

Doping in race horses.

Factors influencing pre-race serum concentration of total carbon dioxide in Thoroughbred horses racing in California.

A direct enzyme immunoassay for the measurement of furosemide in horse plasma.

Questions effect of furosemide on racing Thoroughbreds.

[gales0678]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Maker shows a 28% profit on the betting dollar in all turf route races this decade.

From 885 starters in route races this decade - he shows a 21.2% profit on the betting dollar.

From almost 1,100 career starts in turf routes .. McLaughlin shows a 14.5% profit on the betting dollar.


McLaughlin has real magic to him ... he almost won the Kentucky Derby with Closing Argument .. a horse who was the 20th choice in the betting .. even a bigger price than a sprinting rabbit only entered to ruin Bellamy Road.. and CA ran spectacularly well considering the pace of the race. He was just 2 lengths off of that 22.28 first quarter mile .. and the 1st, 3rd, and 4th place horses all rallied.

He managed to win a horse of the year with Invasor ... a horse from Uruguay who got utterly pummled by Discreet Cat in the UAE Derby.

He won a Breeders Cup F and M Turf with Lahudood .. a filly who went 1-for-7 in Europe and was beaten by Wingspan in an N1X alw on the grass at 10fs - four months later she won the Breeders Cup.

Intidab was beaten 11 consecutive times in Dubai when McLaughlin got him .. was beaten a pole in his first American start at huge odds. 3 months later he beats Artax in a Graded Stake at Saratoga with a 120 Beyer figure.

Just because the guy isn't getting claiming horses doesn't mean he's supposed to have magic numbers and get wild form reversals.

Drugs are we to assume that any trainer on any circuit who is able to get wild form reversals is a cheater , is that a fair statement

Are all trainers equal in ability? ... if 1 guy can't get a horse to run , but someone else can improve him a lot does that automaticlly mean he is juicing?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by gales0678

Drugs are we to assume that any trainer on any circuit who is able to get wild form reversals is a cheater , is that a fair statement

These guys obviously have an edge ... it doesn't mean the edge has to be illegal though.

Just like a Barry Bonds obviously had an edge when his numbers exploded .. and at least we know he probably wasn't cheating in his case .. because steroids weren't outlawed in baseball. And many other players were on them.

Each year, for the last 12 years or so, the gap between the good, average, and bad trainers seems to expand wider and wider. Maybe these guys are cheating ... but most likely not. They probably are just playing by the rules like Barry Bonds was.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Riot

So you couldn't understand the point that the concept of many drugs constantly being newly created by cheating trainers (FatMan thinks so, too), keeping one step ahead of the testers, is mostly fan imagination, rather than reality.

I'm sorry Riot, but I trust my sources more than the "vets" you talked to... and Cannon posted in here identical to what I posted... and yes I'll take Cannons word here over the "vets"..

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

Sure. Okay.

Edit: for those that think there's no research on lasix in racehorses

PubMed. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez "furosemide" "equine" 173 hits. That's only the past seven years, not all years of published research previous to that - basic pharmacokinetics, initial use in the racing industry - is available online, one has to look it up the old-fashioned way. Some examples:

Pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of furosemide after oral administration to horses.

Detection, quantification, and pharmacokinetics of furosemide and its effects on urinary specific gravity following IV administration to horses.

Comparison of serum and urinary concentrations of clenbuterol with and without concomitant administration of furosemide in horses.

Detection of bicarbonate administration (milkshake) in standardbred horses.

Doping in race horses.

Factors influencing pre-race serum concentration of total carbon dioxide in Thoroughbred horses racing in California.

A direct enzyme immunoassay for the measurement of furosemide in horse plasma.

Questions effect of furosemide on racing Thoroughbreds.

Where is the link that shows why 4 hours is the gold standard?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

I'm sorry Riot, but I trust my sources more than the "vets" you talked to... and Cannon posted in here identical to what I posted... and yes I'll take Cannons word here over the "vets"..

Admitting that the "authorities" ie vets and chemists, are totally lost in trying to combat illegal drugs is not going to happen from a vet. It is the basic problem in solving the issue. Similarily the way the drugs that the BALCO guys were using were found out was by someone ratting them out and sending the authorities a sample. Even Dr. Caitlin admitted that they would have likely never found "the clear" or "the cream" through traditional testing methods and that guy is borderline insane. While "cheating" is not nearly as widespread as thought and most positive tests are not really relevant to performance the idea that there aren't things being done beyond the scope of the regulators is frightenly naive.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Admitting that the "authorities" ie vets and chemists, are totally lost in trying to combat illegal drugs is not going to happen from a vet. It is the basic problem in solving the issue. Similarily the way the drugs that the BALCO guys were using were found out was by someone ratting them out and sending the authorities a sample. Even Dr. Caitlin admitted that they would have likely never found "the clear" or "the cream" through traditional testing methods and that guy is borderline insane. While "cheating" is not nearly as widespread as thought and most positive tests are not really relevant to performance the idea that there aren't things being done beyond the scope of the regulators is frightenly naive.

I meant to say something about the bolded earlier.. When most positive tests are not really related to performance enhancers, that is more proof that the performance enhancing substances are always one step ahead of the testers... or they would get caught more often. Barn raids are what got the snake venom - not drug testing. Of course not everyone is cheating... but you notice patterns to get a good idea of who is... and unfortunately great clean trainers will get caught in that category sometimes when its not deserved... just like great clean baseball players will get the label unfairly.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Where is the link that shows why 4 hours is the gold standard?

Well, you can go to PubMed, enter my name under "author", pull up one of the papers that comes up, read that paper, and follow the referenced research when lasix and "four hours" is referred to and footnoted in the experiments (which you will have to do via library, those papers are too early to be banked on the internet)

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Admitting that the "authorities" ie vets and chemists, are totally lost in trying to combat illegal drugs is not going to happen from a vet. It is the basic problem in solving the issue. Similarily the way the drugs that the BALCO guys were using were found out was by someone ratting them out and sending the authorities a sample. Even Dr. Caitlin admitted that they would have likely never found "the clear" or "the cream" through traditional testing methods and that guy is borderline insane. While "cheating" is not nearly as widespread as thought and most positive tests are not really relevant to performance the idea that there aren't things being done beyond the scope of the regulators is frightenly naive.

Do you seriously think that the authorities are indeed "totally lost" in combating illegal drugs? Really? Totally? RMTC and their work, and what has been changed in the past ten years, and what they are working on now?

As to your second comment, if you are referring to me saying things are not done beyond the scope of the regulators, what I said was that they indeed were. I've not seen anybody here say there's no cheating.

Thanks for verifying, "that cheating is not nearly as widespread as thought"

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

I meant to say something about the bolded earlier.. When most positive tests are not really related to performance enhancers, that is more proof that the performance enhancing substances are always one step ahead of the testers... or they would get caught more often. .

Contending that something's invisibility and lack of presence proves that it's actually there, isn't really very logical

It could be that the number of "performance enhancers" is not what the public imagines it to be.

Again - it's not a big secret what "drugs or compounds" people are trying to use, or are using. On a TB track, or a Standardbred track, or a QH track, or a human athletic event. There are only so many ways to affect performance. Only so many things that could do so. Geesh, go on the internet, search, and find them yourself. People are not making up new magic potions out of thin air (although they don't seem to hesitate to try anything)

Yes, not everything known to be used can be found in blood or urine, currently.

Originally Posted by Riot

Do you seriously think that the authorities are indeed "totally lost" in combating illegal drugs? Really? Totally? RMTC and their work, and what has been changed in the past ten years, and what they are working on now?

As to your second comment, if you are referring to me saying things are not done beyond the scope of the regulators, what I said was that they indeed were. I've not seen anybody here say there's no cheating.

Thanks for verifying, "that cheating is not nearly as widespread as thought"

They are in Kentucky. A f.ucking lawyer broad is in charge of it. It's a disaster.

[docicu3]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

This is a myth. If it were so then wouldn't it be fairly easy to catch guys giving these drugs? The detention barns really dont stop anything that is useful anyway. Vets just give the stuff that they would give with Lasix a little earlier and most of it is questionable in its effectivness anyway. The drugs of choice now are either given on a daily basis or are simply modified existing drugs that there are no tests for. The most effective drug of the last 20 years, EPO, is still being used in a modified form without markers. You dont need to give that anywhere near raceday.

With the life of a red blood cell being 90 days, EPO has to be given quite some time prior to race day to be of any use. Lasix or furosemide would need to be given inside that 6 hour window to increase pulmonary capacitance. I suppose some minimal effect is gained 7 hours prior but it certainly is not being used at maximal efficacy. However Epogen is being altered is almost irrelevant when you give it literally a month or two prior to race day to stimulate red cell mass, by the time they test for it after a race it's months since the horse has seen the drug

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

Well, you can go to PubMed, enter my name under "author", pull up one of the papers that comes up, read that paper, and follow the referenced research when lasix and "four hours" is referred to and footnoted in the experiments (which you will have to do via library, those papers are too early to be banked on the internet)

I did and all it did was bring me to a study that said Lasix was most effective given 30 minutes before exercise. That study was done about 20 years after the regular use of Lasix on raceday began.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

Do you seriously think that the authorities are indeed "totally lost" in combating illegal drugs? Really? Totally? RMTC and their work, and what has been changed in the past ten years, and what they are working on now?

As to your second comment, if you are referring to me saying things are not done beyond the scope of the regulators, what I said was that they indeed were. I've not seen anybody here say there's no cheating.

Thanks for verifying, "that cheating is not nearly as widespread as thought"

Do I seriously think authorities are totally lost in combating illegal drugs? Absolutely. The CIA has done a better job tracking Bin Laden than the RMTC has in uncovering anything groundbreaking. While their work is appreciated and needed what exactly have they done in combating illegal and/or undetectable drugs? Pretty much nothing.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by docicu3

With the life of a red blood cell being 90 days, EPO has to be given quite some time prior to race day to be of any use. Lasix or furosemide would need to be given inside that 6 hour window to increase pulmonary capacitance. I suppose some minimal effect is gained 7 hours prior but it certainly is not being used at maximal efficacy. However Epogen is being altered is almost irrelevant when you give it literally a month or two prior to race day to stimulate red cell mass, by the time they test for it after a race it's months since the horse has seen the drug

EPO is not used on a one time basis. A series of doses are given over a period of time.

I wasn't speaking of Lasix when tlking about outside of the 6 hour window.

[docicu3]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

EPO is not used on a one time basis. A series of doses are given over a period of time.

I wasn't speaking of Lasix when tlking about outside of the 6 hour window.

I realize that Chuck, but EPO can be given for an end point that will not occurr for as much as 60 days to peak effect because of the half life of a red cell. You could time this hemoglobin effect to peak for a race so far away from the actual running that testing is senseless because the drug would be completely gone though it's effect on bone marrow can continue with the right cofactors.

To make a point without naming names .....

When you see these magic claims where a horse is claimed but not run for almost exactly 90 days from the claim and then off the layoff instead of the horse needing a race to get back in shape these super trainers are able to induce a horse to move up staggering numbers at ages your not supposed to improve.

At post time when these horses go off at odds that seem to expect they'll win though the form says they won't...they win!...I know you know this is exactly what happens. Now that's an EPO effect, the same damn drug I give dialysis and cancer patients every day.