well, did we win?

[DaTruth]

The invasion of Iraq was foolhardy, but some of you act as if Saddam wasn't already on thin ice with the international community. You remember things like the conditions to end the 1991 Gulf War, UNSCOM, and the no-fly zones, right?

[bigrun]

Originally Posted by DaTruth

The invasion of Iraq was foolhardy, but some of you act as if Saddam wasn't already on thin ice with the international community. You remember things like the conditions to end the 1991 Gulf War, UNSCOM, and the no-fly zones, right?

True, but how were they such a threat that required invasion and 8 year war?

[jms62]

Originally Posted by bigrun

True, but how were they such a threat that required invasion and 8 year war?

And over 1 Trillion dollars. Going forward unless we are attacked I say we institute a 10% war tax to pay for any of these wars. Congressional approval required. We will see how many of these useless wars we are invovled in.

[clyde]

The real danger here is the looming Russia/Turkey problem.




Should Russia make a move from the rear on Turkey...they would surely need Greece.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Have they really changed that much? N Korea has nukes, Russia will soon have a dictator once again, Iran is close to nukes, the Chinese have recently been rattling sabres. Japan and Germany get a personal bodyguard at a fraction of the cost it would have to spend if they did it themselves. Japan has had economic issues far longer than us and you better believe that they are happy to have us there when the N Koreans lob another rocket over them like they did not that long ago. If the Germans wanted us out, we would have been out but they dont want us to simply move to Poland which would be happy to have us.

you are correct that germany makes out economically since their protection is on our dime. and thats my point...we are paying thru the nose for them. does it help us?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by jms62

And over 1 Trillion dollars. Going forward unless we are attacked I say we institute a 10% war tax to pay for any of these wars. Congressional approval required. We will see how many of these useless wars we are invovled in.

Bush's war was the first one the US didn't pay for when we invaded. What's a trillion on the taxpayers necks for decades, when you can give billions unaccounted for, to your contractor friends?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Sure but what if we hadnt got involvd and France and other countries were annexed. It would have only been a matter of time until Russia ramped up and went to war with Germany again and with the Germans so spread out most likely constantly putting out fires from the underground which wouldnt have been so happy with being taken over they might have actually lost. Would Russian control of Europe be a positive? Obviously hypo's but it isnt a given that germany would have sucessfully ruled Europe peacefully. As a matter of fact you could argue that there might have been multiple wars.

thats the thing...no real way of knowing how things would have gone on from ww one. russia didnt really start exerting real power til after the second war. they got out of ww one before the end and of course had their revolution. it took a whuile for them to become a world player again.
im not suggesting that germany shouldnt have had conditions at the end of ww one. but the harshness of those conditions are what ultimately lead to hitler, rearming, and invasion.
at any rate, interesting to speculate, altho of course it really is a useless exercise.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Riot

Bush's war was the first one the US didn't pay for when we invaded. What's a trillion on the taxpayers necks for decades, when you can give billions unaccounted for, to your contractor friends?[/

And they will argue this point with you They will bitch about the deficit yet be for these unpaid wars. They will be against taxes yet be for unfunded wars..... .

[Riot]

This is a huge reason we went to war - it's very, very profitable for friends of Bush-Cheney. Oil and war. That's why aggressive neocon politicians are so popular and sell so quickly in Washington.

Watching Romney, Newt, Perry, Bachmann and Santorum trip over each other at the debate the other day, trying to say how quickly they will bomb Iran, is neocon wet dream. Watching Romney brag about how he'll double the size of the navy, and immediately increase the army by 100,000 troops, should really bring in the PAC dollars.

And the below is exactly why Occupy exists. The American people, almost half of whom now live near or in poverty, have had enough.

The below wasted billions - given to Cheney and Bush's friends at Halliburton - would buy alot of food and healthcare for American citizens. Bailed out every single underwater mortgage. Bought college educations for hundreds of thousands.

But no! The Republicans scream we can't spend taxpayer dollars on .... the citizens who give them!

The interim report from the Commission on Wartime Contracting in Iraq and Afghanistan points out that contractors in the war zones sometimes have exceeded the number of military personnel. Numbering 200,000, contractors now roughly match the military force.

"Misspent dollars run into the tens of billions," the report said. The 64-page report was released Thursday and will be followed up next week with a hearing on how to improve contractor accountability.

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-02-25/p..._s=PM:POLITICS

Lost & Unaccounted for in Iraq - $9 billion of US taxpayers' money and $549.7 milion in spare parts shipped in 2004 to US contractors. Also, per ABC News, 190,000 guns, including 110,000 AK-47 rifles.

Lost and Reported Stolen - $6.6 billion of U.S. taxpayers' money earmarked for Iraq reconstruction, reported on June 14, 2011 by Special inspector general for Iraq reconstruction Stuart Bowen who called it "the largest theft of funds in national history." (Source - CBS News) Last known holder of the $6.6 billion lost: the U.S. government.

Missing - $1 billion in tractor trailers, tank recovery vehicles, machine guns, rocket-propelled grenades and other equipment and services provided to the Iraqi security forces. (Per CBS News on Dec 6, 2007.)

Mismanaged & Wasted in Iraq - $10 billion, per Feb 2007 Congressional hearings

Halliburton Overcharges Classified by the Pentagon as Unreasonable and Unsupported - $1.4 billion

Amount paid to KBR, a former Halliburton division, to supply U.S. military in Iraq with food, fuel, housing and other items - $20 billion

Portion of the $20 billion paid to KBR that Pentagon auditors deem "questionable or supportable" - $3.2 billion

http://usliberals.about.com/od/homel...raqNumbers.htm

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Riot

This is a huge reason we went to war - it's very, very profitable for friends of Bush-Cheney. Oil and war. That's why aggressive neocon politicians are so popular and sell so quickly in Washington.

Watching Romney, Newt, Perry, Bachmann and Santorum trip over each other at the debate the other day, trying to say how quickly they will bomb Iran, is neocon wet dream. Watching Romney brag about how he'll double the size of the navy, and immediately increase the army by 100,000 troops, should really bring in the PAC dollars.

No country has EVER won a war in Afghanistangoing back THOUSANDS OF YEARS. It broke the Soviet Union.. Why on earth would we buck those odds???? But I guess we will do the now thing and simply declare victory prior to departure... Trillions spent, countless lives lost... They still hate us and it will degrade into chaos once we leave but hell, we will declare victory. Republican, Democrat... They all suck. Elect Ron Paul and buy as much gold as you can afford once it is clear he is in.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by jms62

No country has EVER won a war in Afghanistangoing back THOUSANDS OF YEARS. It broke the Soviet Union.. Why on earth would we buck those odds???? But I guess we will do the now thing and simply declare victory prior to departure... Trillions spent, countless lives lost... They still hate us and it will degrade into chaos once we leave but hell, we will declare victory. Republican, Democrat... They all suck. Elect Ron Paul and buy as much gold as you can afford once it is clear he is in.

I love watching Ron Paul at these debates ... Newt says he will drag the Supreme Court into congressional hearings if they don't like their rulings, the rest promise to start immediately war in Iran ... and Ron Paul is the only one who looks amazed and says to them, "We have a Constitution, you can't do that"!

You GO, Ron!

And you have to realize that the taxpayers are broke now, the middle class is gone. The only way for the wealthy military-industrial complex to continue to be fed is to have their politicians steal the Medicare and Social Security dollars and funnel those dollars into the private sector via Wall Street . It's the only "free government" money left available to them to steal.

Oh! And don't forget to distract the citizens. Get the citizens to hate each other by demonizing their fellow citizens so they infight and can't see you steal their money: unions, schoolteachers, firefighters, police are the evil ones is this society. SQUIRREL ! GET THEM! THEY have caused us to be broke!

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Riot

I love watching Ron Paul at these debates ... Newt says he will drag the Supreme Court into congressional hearings if they don't like their rulings, the rest promise to start immediately war in Iran ... and Ron Paul is the only one who looks amazed and says to them, "We have a Constitution, you can't do that"!

You GO, Ron!

And you have to realize that the taxpayers are broke now, the middle class is gone. The only way for the wealthy military-industrial complex to continue to be fed is to have their politicians steal the Medicare and Social Security dollars and funnel those dollars into the private sector via Wall Street . It's the only "free government" money left available to them to steal.

Oh! And don't forget to distract the citizens. Get the citizens to hate each other by demonizing their fellow citizens so they infight and can't see you steal their money: unions, schoolteachers, firefighters, police are the evil ones is this society. SQUIRREL ! GET THEM! THEY have caused us to be broke!

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by jms62

No country has EVER won a war in Afghanistangoing back THOUSANDS OF YEARS. It broke the Soviet Union.. Why on earth would we buck those odds???? But I guess we will do the now thing and simply declare victory prior to departure... Trillions spent, countless lives lost... They still hate us and it will degrade into chaos once we leave but hell, we will declare victory. Republican, Democrat... They all suck. Elect Ron Paul and buy as much gold as you can afford once it is clear he is in.

i agree, they do all suck. i find it funny some blame bush, but when others say obama hasnt fixed anything, bush bashers then say he cant fix it all himself. that congress has a hand in it. hello! congress always has a hand in it. our govt has gotten us in all our messes, not just one person. and its been years in the making. thats why i was cynical when so many bought obamas hope and change lines.

[bigrun]

Originally Posted by clyde

The real danger here is the looming Russia/Turkey problem.




Should Russia make a move from the rear on Turkey...they would surely need Greece.

stop it!

[bigrun]

Editor's Note: Andrew J. Bacevich is Professor of International Relations and History at Boston University. This post is one of four from the Council on Foreign Relations in response to the question, Was the Iraq War worth it?
By Andrew Bacevich
As framed, the question invites a sober comparison of benefits and costs - gain vs. pain. The principal benefit derived from the Iraq War is easily identified: as the war's defenders insist with monotonous regularity, the world is indeed a better place without Saddam Hussein. Point taken.
Yet few of those defenders have demonstrated the moral courage - or is it simple decency - to consider who paid and what was lost in securing Saddam's removal. That tally includes well over four thousand U.S. dead along with several tens of thousands wounded and otherwise bearing the scars of war; vastly larger numbers of Iraqi civilians killed, maimed, and displaced; and at least a trillion dollars expended - probably several times that by the time the last bill comes due decades from now. Recalling that Saddam's weapons of mass destruction and alleged ties to al-Qaeda both turned out to be all but non-existent, a Churchillian verdict on the war might read thusly: Seldom in the course of human history have so many sacrificed so dearly to achieve so little.
Yet in inviting a narrow cost-benefit analysis, the question-as-posed serves to understate the scope of the debacle engineered by the war's architects. The disastrous legacy of the Iraq War extends beyond treasure squandered and lives lost or shattered. Central to that legacy has been Washington's decisive and seemingly irrevocable abandonment of any semblance of self-restraint regarding the use of violence as an instrument of statecraft. With all remaining prudential, normative, and constitutional barriers to the use of force having now been set aside, war has become a normal condition, something that the great majority of Americans accept without complaint. War is U.S.
Central to [the war's] legacy has been Washington's decisive and seemingly irrevocable abandonment of any semblance of self-restraint regarding the use of violence as an instrument of statecraft.
One senses that this was what the likes of [Vice President Dick] Cheney, [Secretary of Defense Donald] Rumsfeld, and [Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul] Wolfowitz (urged on by militarists cheering from the sidelines and with George W. Bush serving as their enabler) intended all along. By leaving intact and even enlarging the policies that his predecessor had inaugurated, President Barack Obama has handed these militarists an unearned victory. As they drag themselves from one "overseas contingency operation" to the next, American soldiers must reckon with the consequences. So too will the somnolent American people be obliged to do, perhaps sooner than they think.
The views expressed in this article are solely those of Andrew Bacevich. For more, visit CFR.org.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by bigrun

Editor's Note: Andrew J. Bacevich is Professor of International Relations and History at Boston University. This post is one of four from the Council on Foreign Relations in response to the question, Was the Iraq War worth it?
By Andrew Bacevich
As framed, the question invites a sober comparison of benefits and costs - gain vs. pain. The principal benefit derived from the Iraq War is easily identified: as the war's defenders insist with monotonous regularity, the world is indeed a better place without Saddam Hussein. Point taken.
Yet few of those defenders have demonstrated the moral courage - or is it simple decency - to consider who paid and what was lost in securing Saddam's removal. That tally includes well over four thousand U.S. dead along with several tens of thousands wounded and otherwise bearing the scars of war; vastly larger numbers of Iraqi civilians killed, maimed, and displaced; and at least a trillion dollars expended - probably several times that by the time the last bill comes due decades from now. Recalling that Saddam's weapons of mass destruction and alleged ties to al-Qaeda both turned out to be all but non-existent, a Churchillian verdict on the war might read thusly: Seldom in the course of human history have so many sacrificed so dearly to achieve so little.
Yet in inviting a narrow cost-benefit analysis, the question-as-posed serves to understate the scope of the debacle engineered by the war's architects. The disastrous legacy of the Iraq War extends beyond treasure squandered and lives lost or shattered. Central to that legacy has been Washington's decisive and seemingly irrevocable abandonment of any semblance of self-restraint regarding the use of violence as an instrument of statecraft. With all remaining prudential, normative, and constitutional barriers to the use of force having now been set aside, war has become a normal condition, something that the great majority of Americans accept without complaint. War is U.S.
Central to [the war's] legacy has been Washington's decisive and seemingly irrevocable abandonment of any semblance of self-restraint regarding the use of violence as an instrument of statecraft.
One senses that this was what the likes of [Vice President Dick] Cheney, [Secretary of Defense Donald] Rumsfeld, and [Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul] Wolfowitz (urged on by militarists cheering from the sidelines and with George W. Bush serving as their enabler) intended all along. By leaving intact and even enlarging the policies that his predecessor had inaugurated, President Barack Obama has handed these militarists an unearned victory. As they drag themselves from one "overseas contingency operation" to the next, American soldiers must reckon with the consequences. So too will the somnolent American people be obliged to do, perhaps sooner than they think.
The views expressed in this article are solely those of Andrew Bacevich. For more, visit CFR.org.

this, along with lives and treasure squandered, is what bothers me most. we used to have a policy of peace thru strength. we used to refuse to resort to violence unless we were first attacked. it seems 9-11 has become carte blanche for our govt. to decide who to attack and how-but to not necessarily worry about why. our treatment of borders other than our own as only a line on a map is a symptom of this new behavior. our 'either with us or against us' mentality continues along with the 'enemy of my enemy is my friend' line of thought.
our foreign policy has been a disgrace for years; it needs a new mindset. we must consider our best interest first, last and always. we used to stay out of foreign conflicts, we need to go back to that.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Danzig

we used to stay out of foreign conflicts, we need to go back to that.

Well, every single Republican candidate (except for Libertarian Ron Paul) wants to immediately start another war in Iran. The military industrial complex is throwing money at them. The American public is apparently too stupid to be appalled (they cheered this at the last debate). Considering that most people less than 30 years old have been trained that this is normal and rightous, via the disastrous 8 years of the last administration, it's not surprising.

So good luck with that.

[bigrun]

Originally Posted by Riot

Well, every single Republican candidate (except for Libertarian Ron Paul) wants to immediately start another war in Iran. The military industrial complex is throwing money at them. The American public is apparently too stupid to be appalled (they cheered this at the last debate). Considering that most people less than 30 years old have been trained that this is normal and rightous, via the disastrous 8 years of the last administration, it's not surprising.

So good luck with that.

Editorial in today's paper...

On Thursday, troops in Baghdad lowered a flag to signal the end of American military operations in Iraq. Combat troops are departing, but the U.S. will remain intimately involved in the country it invaded in 2003. A verdict regarding the operation has not been delivered.

After it toppled Saddam, the U.S. assumed an obligation to erect a new nation. Initially, it was unprepared for the task. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld came off as supercilious. The armed forces fought heroically on behalf of an uncertain mission.


America has a paid a significant price in dollars and in lives. The troops on the ground behaved with a determination greater than that seen on the home front. This has happened before. The military deserves better civilian leadership. The lack of planning for a post-invasion Iraq permanently will blemish the Bush administration's record, even if Iraq emerges as a Denmark along the Euphrates. Our expectations for Iraq's future are restrained, yet we are not prepared at this moment to judge the war a mistake. Regardless of its enduring outcome, the invasion resembled a humbling experience.


President Obama's withdrawal from Iraq gives him ownership of the war's aftermath. He will be blamed if Iraq disintegrates. The charges against him have begun. The withdrawal may be premature, but the American people have lost the appetite for suzerainty. After Mao and the communists prevailed, the question "Who lost China?" influenced U.S. politics. If Baghdad descends to the depths, American politicians will ask, "Who lost Iraq?".... wasn't aware we won anything.

Iraq: Taps | Richmond Times-Dispatch

Check the link below for full piece...Last para, the word suzerainty is used...sounds like one of yours...lol...found several definitions and still

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/r...ps-ar-1550241/

[Riot]

Originally Posted by bigrun

Check the link below for full piece...Last para, the word suzerainty is used...sounds like one of yours...lol...found several definitions and still

Never heard of it! But from those various definitions, I would say, no, the Republican party at least most certainly hasn't lost their taste for being the God-Given Suzerain of the world

It was disgusting to hear John McCain stand on the Senate floor the other day and accuse this President of virtually treasonous acts for bringing our troops home. Maybe he's just lost his friggin' mind, finally. I seem to remember years of blanket, "support a wartime president or YOU are treasonous!"

[bigrun]

Originally Posted by Riot

Never heard of it! But from those various definitions, I would say, no, the Republican party at least most certainly hasn't lost their taste for being the God-Given Suzerain of the world

It was disgusting to hear John McCain stand on the Senate floor the other day and accuse this President of virtually treasonous acts for bringing our troops home. Maybe he's just lost his friggin' mind, finally. I seem to remember years of blanket, "support a wartime president or YOU are treasonous!"

That only applied to G. Dumya Bush's presidency....also you weren't a Patriot, didn't support the troops, and hate America....heard it all...