Nobiz Like Showbiz

[gales0678]

Originally Posted by golfer

Did you see the head on view of the start? Am I nuts in thinking the assistant starter still had a hold of him when the gate opened, which caused him to jump? (By the way, this has nothing to do with whether or not he's better than Magna Grad).

You're not nuts, this impacted the whole race and sent a lot of tickests up in flames, how can the NYRA allow this to happen on one of the biggest days of the year , pity the public to think the game is fair in NY

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by gales0678

You're not nuts, this impacted the whole race and sent a lot of tickests up in flames, how can the NYRA allow this to happen on one of the biggest days of the year , pity the public to think the game is fair in NY

I don't understand what this means? NYRA has refunded TONS of money because of horses that had unfair starts and to any way insinuate that NYRA doesn't take these matters VERY seriously and go out of their way to make sure the right thing is done by the betting public in these cases flies in the face of the facts. You know, sometimes it is the horse that causes his or her own problems at the start, and that is a risk we all take when we are betting.

Your comment leads me to believe you have a relationship with someone else interested in the franchise. That isn't the case...is it?

[sumitas]

it doesn't seem that the starting gate is the ultimate solution for horse racing...too many problems, fo sho.

[randallscott35]

"And the flag is up.....and there off." ---No thanks.

[gales0678]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I don't understand what this means? NYRA has refunded TONS of money because of horses that had unfair starts and to any way insinuate that NYRA doesn't take these matters VERY seriously and go out of their way to make sure the right thing is done by the betting public in these cases flies in the face of the facts. You know, sometimes it is the horse that causes his or her own problems at the start, and that is a risk we all take when we are betting.

Your comment leads me to believe you have a relationship with someone else interested in the franchise. That isn't the case...is it?

No relationship with any else interested in the NYRA - Steve can confirm that
but
Andy - that was a joke - how does a 3/5 shot got held at the gate by the asst. starter - most of the public doesn't pick these minor things up , but, that was a joke today - and i didn't even play the race

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by gales0678

No relationship with any else interested in the NYRA - Steve can confirm that
but
Andy - that was a joke - how does a 3/5 shot got held at the gate by the asst. starter - most of the public doesn't pick these minor things up , but, that was a joke today - and i didn't even play the race

I'm sorry, I thought you had a relationship with West Point Stables. I must have you confused with somebody else.

[gales0678]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I'm sorry, I thought you had a relationship with West Point Stables. I must have you confused with somebody else.

i have a friend who owns a few west point horses that's all

but

what does that have to do with a 3/5 shot being held at the gate?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by gales0678

i have a friend who owns a few west point horses that's all

but

what does that have to do with a 3/5 shot being held at the gate?

He was NOT held at the gate, and I just watched the head on over ten times, and perhaps you need to read the quote from Javiar Castellano in Dave Grening's piece in the Daily Racing Form....



"He was so good today in the paddock and in the gate," said Castellano, who rode Corinthian. "Today, everything was beautiful. As soon as they opened the gate - boom! He just broke in the air. I don't even know how I stayed on."


I am guessing Javiar knows better than you or I.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by gales0678

i have a friend who owns a few west point horses that's all

but

what does that have to do with a 3/5 shot being held at the gate?

And, by the way, it has a lot to do with comments slamming NYRA, especially ones in this case that were specifically unfair and generally unfair, as Terry Finley from West Point Stables is an integral part of Empire Racing which is trying to win the racing franchise.

Believe me, this is not a criticism of Terry, who I get along quite well with, or Empire, but I think it is important for us to be up front about our allegiances when criticizing entities in racing. Sort of how I say Richard Migliore is my friend when it is relevent to a post I am making.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I'm not a bounce guy, but.....

To be honest, and I really liked this horse going into today's race, and he was just dreadful, but I would have to say today's result may be a reasonable example of why deviating from laid out plans can blow up in your face. Pletcher had presumably been training him to run next week and now he ran a week earlier than originally planned. I'm no trainer, and maybe Chuck could offer his opinion, but I don't think it's inconceivable that what we saw was a short horse. He has run well in the past, and today's effort was SO bad that I am inclined to think there has to be some story.

U don't need Chuck to tell u this. This is EXACTLY what I said would be the case before the race.

[golfer]

No offense Andy, but Castellano probably wasn't focusing on the assistant starter's hand. But if, after watching it a bunch of times, you feel it wasn't an issue, I will accept that. I have no axe to grind, my day was pretty much shot at that point anyway.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by golfer

No offense Andy, but Castellano probably wasn't focusing on the assistant starter's hand. But if, after watching it a bunch of times, you feel it wasn't an issue, I will accept that. I have no axe to grind, my day was pretty much shot at that point anyway.

I disagree. I think Javiar would have known and would have voiced his displeasure. I have seen plenty of horses held in the gate....and none of them did what this one did at the start. It sucks....but unfortunately it happens.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

He ran 1 1/2 seconds slower than Magna Graduate.

I know, I know........totally different circumstances but for what it's worth, Nobiz didn't even run as fast a final time as he did when winning the Remsen last year. I will be interested in what the figures are for today. He was given a 97 Beyer for the Remsen. His career figures have been 96-92-97-98-94 and then today's race. He's a consistent horse but certainly not a brilliant one and from my perspective and seemingly from Beyer's, he hasn't progressed one bit. He's just consistently good but not anything more than that.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Dont forget that sheet numbers arent facts they are opinions

bingo we have a winner..voodoo

[gales0678]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

He was NOT held at the gate, and I just watched the head on over ten times, and perhaps you need to read the quote from Javiar Castellano in Dave Grening's piece in the Daily Racing Form....



"He was so good today in the paddock and in the gate," said Castellano, who rode Corinthian. "Today, everything was beautiful. As soon as they opened the gate - boom! He just broke in the air. I don't even know how I stayed on."


I am guessing Javiar knows better than you or I.

Of course Javiar is not going to say he was held at the gate. The entire OTB where I watched the race, went up in arms during the replay, that's when i saw it. I didn't even notice it at the start. We can all have opinions and we can all disagree, but, at leats 5 people at the OTB thought he was held, and they are entitled to their opinions as well.
I saw golfer's post and simply agreed with him that it was a joke that this happened. Now we may BOTH be dead wrong and people at OTB may be dead wrong and you maybe right , but ,we still have a right to express our opinion on what we thought happened and people can make opinions from there. There were a lot of disapointed horse players at the OTB today after seeing that replay. Maybe they just all are paranoid.

Again what does it matter if a friend of mind has a few %'s in a few horses at WPS have to do with this race? I am simply a fan making a comment on something I saw

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by gales0678

Again what does it matter if a friend of mind has a few %'s in a few horses at WPS have to do with this race? I am simply a fan making a comment on something I saw

It matters a lot in this situation when you took an unfair, and indefensible, shot at NYRA. Your relationship with Empire Racing is specifically important in this case and extremely relevent.

Hey, I'm biased about things as well, it's hard not to be when you have associations in this game. It just helps to be more up front about them.

[Suffolk Shippers]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I know, I know........totally different circumstances but for what it's worth, Nobiz didn't even run as fast a final time as he did when winning the Remsen last year. I will be interested in what the figures are for today. He was given a 97 Beyer for the Remsen. His career figures have been 96-92-97-98-94 and then today's race. He's a consistent horse but certainly not a brilliant one and from my perspective and seemingly from Beyer's, he hasn't progressed one bit. He's just consistently good but not anything more than that.

excellent point, he is consistently a top performer...but can those consistent numbers translate to a $2 million score on Derby Day? I tend to think not.
Nobiz reminds me a little of Smarty Jones, a very hard horse to keep under wraps. Cornelio did today to an extent, but I don't trust him over the long term doing it. Stew Elliot did well in keeping Smarty under wraps, until the Belmont...

[gales0678]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

It matters a lot in this situation when you took an unfair, and indefensible, shot at NYRA. Your relationship with Empire Racing is specifically important in this case and extremely relevent.

Hey, I'm biased about things as well, it's hard not to be when you have associations in this game. It just helps to be more up front about them.

Andy in all honesty I have never met Terry Finely he wouldn't even know who I was. Until you mentioned he was involded with Empire I had no idea.
As you know there are many, many West Point owners. I have no financial interest in empire or west point. I am fortuante eneough to get to go see the horses train once in a while as a guest. I was speaking as a fan of the game and what people at an OTB observed around me and then saw a fellow poster comment about what happened today and responed. You make it sound as though I just got off the phone with Finely and he put me up to this - nothing could be further from the truth. I will tell you this, I am not the only one going to bed tonight thinking that that horse was held. Perhaps some one else on this board can give an opinon as to what they think happend besides myself , golfer , and you - Anybody else see the head on replay of the Corinthian race?

[Cajungator26]

I only saw it once, Gales...

To me, it looked like Corinthian reared and wasn't held. Typical headcase move for him IMO.

[blackthroatedwind]

Well, maybe I am off-base, but considering the number of West Point horses you have told me about, it seemed to me that you were involved with them. I apologize for my confusion. Their association with Empire is hardly a secret.

Sorry, but not only are horseplayers overly paranoid ( myself included at times ), but the cries of people at OTB are hardly reliable. If I wrote a book of the comments I have heard in those establishments over the years it would rival the funniest tomes ever written. The simple fact is that Corinthian has a long history of being a bad actor, most horses' gate mishaps are NOT caused by the gate crew, and NYRA has an established record of paying careful attention to situations like this, always having an inquiry into start mishaps, and more than rarely declaring horses non starters and refunding millions of dollars in wagers at Saratoga alone. They had an inquiry today, looked at the film, undoubtably talked to those involved, and made what appears to be the correct decision. Their track record in this category speaks for itself.

I have bet a lot of horses that had disasterous starts. It's frustrating....but it is not necessarily the fault of the gate crew. And, I think I can back this up, NOBODY has been more publically critical of the NYRA gate crew than I have been.