NBA Rookie of the Year?

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

We arent talking fantasy, we are talking real life. Your comparisons are ill conceived as you listed the 2 best players in the league, a center (so says ppgn) and a point guard. Marion is a very good 2 way player that can do everything including play lockdown defense. He is a 4 time allstar in the Western conference and you are acting like it is some fluke that he has good stats. Dont you think playing on a team that averages 110 points a game helped him out in fantasy?

We are talking real life....stats alone, as Pgardn pointed out, aren't a complete picture! This is illustrated by Marion...in the fantasy sport world, he IS the best player in the NBA...by your own admission here, Kobe and Lebron are better....don't try and turn things around, it was you who tried to compare Kobe and Lebron with Durant by using stats! Durant is a good young player...with skills greatly inferior to Kobe, Lebron and a number of other NBA players. Kobe and Lebron were probably the physical equals of Durant at about....15 or 16!

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Marion is a huge headcase just like Amare.
He is one guy I loved on the Suns, he would absolutely shut down during the 4th quarter in big games. Marion is a regular season get my numbers guy. Until he proves otherwise he is nothing more.

He is a bit odd but he is a tremendous player. The Suns style was compromised during the 4th quarters of playoff games when every possession counts and you cant waste opportunities. That does not play to Marion's offensive strengths. But he is a great defender and can guard just about anyone.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

We are talking real life....stats alone, as Pgardn pointed out, aren't a complete picture! This is illustrated by Marion...in the fantasy sport world, he IS the best player in the NBA...by your own admission here, Kobe and Lebron are better....don't try and turn things around, it was you who tried to compare Kobe and Lebron with Durant by using stats! Durant is a good young player...with skills greatly inferior to Kobe, Lebron and a number of other NBA players. Kobe and Lebron were probably the physical equals of Durant at about....15 or 16!

If you compare the production of the three at age 19, which I did, it is clear that he is as productive as those 2 were at the same age. Is that too hard for you to understand? Do Lebrons 20 a game in 36 mins as a rookie count more than Durants 20 a game in 33 minutes? His skills at age 19 are not greatly inferior to either player. No one is saying that he will become the players that those 2 are now but he is nowhere near 'greatly inferior" to either at the same stage of their careers.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

That is the whole point. There is a zero percent chance that he wont improve as all the really young guys in the league do. However he is already far ahead of almost every other 19 year old to come into the leeague except LeBron and maybe Carmello. He is the best player on his team despite the physical issues and lack of experience. They suck but ho can you knock a guy that has been as productive as he has at 19. Especially when he is drawing the opposing teams best defender on most nights. If you wanted to knock him, he seems to have no clue on the defensive end. He gets a couple of blocks and steals but that is because he is long.

He has not been asked to play defense.
He has some real issues with taking care of the ball, some of it might have to do with strength. He is far ahead because he is such a fundamentally sound shooter. The biggest impediment to his game is his lack of athleticism. He is slow footed and weak. Yes I would expect his quickness and strength to improve. Once he starts getting to the basket off the dribble he will be pure hell to cover because he is a pure shooter. But with an inability to penetrate on a consistent basis off the dribble he is a bit more handicapped as a shooter. People dont back off of him. You can put a athletic 6 foot 6 guy on him and get right in his grill. Get right on top of him. That hurts him a great deal right now imo. And that strong 6 foot 6 guy can push him to halfcourt if he tries to get on the blocks... hurts him a great deal. He also is playing on a team that is bad so he does pick up a good number of baskets when the game is already over.

I do see some similiarites between Durant and the early George Gervin except that Gervin could go to the basket (ABA Defense). Gervin also had very sharp elbows. I have not seen those from Durant yet (probably smart by him not to try this right now)

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

If you compare the production of the three at age 19, which I did, it is clear that he is as productive as those 2 were at the same age. Is that too hard for you to understand? Do Lebrons 20 a game in 36 mins as a rookie count more than Durants 20 a game in 33 minutes? His skills at age 19 are not greatly inferior to either player. No one is saying that he will become the players that those 2 are now but he is nowhere near 'greatly inferior" to either at the same stage of their careers.

I doubt that there is anything you could say that would be too hard for me to understand...you flatter your intellect. We disagree on the extent of Durant's skills at this time in his career...I fail to see how that makes me unable to "understand" anything.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

No wonder the American education system is under attack! .

Oh the teacher bashing I endure on this site.

Betcha I could teach you some stuff
about the physics of a horse striking
different types of surfaces and I betcha
you would be interested.

I gotta get up there and have a beer
with this horse bunch. Have em slap me upside
the head.

I love talking sports. Have a pleasant evening...
both Somer and Mr. Cannon. Even his highness
King Glory. Good stuff.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Oh the teacher bashing I endure on this site.

Betcha I could teach you some stuff
about the physics of a horse striking
different types of surfaces and I betcha
you would be interested.

I gotta get up there and have a beer
with this horse bunch. Have em slap me upside
the head.

I love talking sports. Have a pleasant evening...
both Somer and Mr. Cannon. Even his highness
King Glory. Good stuff.

I'm done also...sleepy and time for an old guy to hit the sack!

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

I doubt that there is anything you could say that would be too hard for me to understand...you flatter your intellect. We disagree on the extent of Durant's skills at this time in his career...I fail to see how that makes me unable to "understand" anything.

And you think that your opinion counts more than what actually occurs on the court. Look at the numbers and tell me MR. Basketball, how Durant can produce similar numbers to the 2 other platers despite greatly inferior skills? You cannot so you resort to personal shots. The original point i was making was to refute Ppgns summary that Durant was a one dimensional gunner by posting his numbers as compared to the 2 best players in the NBA at the same point in each's career. Then you popped in with your numbers dont matter BS and you want to tell everyone how smart you are because you took Shaun Marion in your fantasy team last year?

[King Glorious]

I'd take Michael Beasley over Durant. Durant is going to end up being just like Rashard Lewis. A guy that can consistently get you 20-23 a night but very little else and won't be able to go inside at all. He's going to rely on the jumper and that's it. There is a place for him and there is never anything wrong with a guy that can get you 20-23 a night. But there are also quite a few guys around the league that could do it under the same circumstances that Durant has now.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

And you think that your opinion counts more than what actually occurs on the court. Look at the numbers and tell me MR. Basketball, how Durant can produce similar numbers to the 2 other platers despite greatly inferior skills? You cannot so you resort to personal shots. The original point i was making was to refute Ppgns summary that Durant was a one dimensional gunner by posting his numbers as compared to the 2 best players in the NBA at the same point in each's career. Then you popped in with your numbers dont matter BS and you want to tell everyone how smart you are because you took Shaun Marion in your fantasy team last year?

First off...I didn't question your intellect, you questioned mine...I simply replied that I am fully capable of understanding anything you post so don't flatter yourself.
Secondly...I don't recall ever selecting Marion in fantasy ball, perhaps I did but I certainly wouldn't brag about it, he's always listed as #1 so what would there be to brag about???
Thirdly (and lastly cause this is going nowhere cause we both have our opinions)...we see Durant's skill set completely differently. Time will tell which is right.

[Cannon Shell]

I never actually said anything about Durants skills except that they werent greatly inferior as you posted. Maybe if you actually read what I posted you would understand what my point was? You said that stats are not reflective of true ability. That is probably true when a player LACKS the numbers that really define his game. Or if Durant was taking 23 shots a games and scoring 19 points per (which is where ppgn was way off) compared to a similar player who was taking 15 and putting up the same numbers. The only place where it is hard to use stats on guys like this is on defense which is an area that I have stated that Durant is seriously lacking. LeBron and Kobe are only motivated to actually play hard on defense on occasion but they do seemingly understand the concepts while Durant is just floating around. The fact that his production is similar or superior to those guys numbers at the same age doesn't gaurantee that he will be or is as good as those guys. But it does PROVE that he is an extraordinarliy skilled player that potentially has a chance to be one of the top ten players in the league. You cant put up numbers like this at 19 in the NBA unless you are very good.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

. Or if Durant was taking 23 shots a games and scoring 19 points per (which is where ppgn was way off)

I did not look up his stats.
It was a guess that I felt about summed up his
game. What was way off... ? He goes about 7 out of 19?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

I did not look up his stats.
It was a guess that I felt about summed up his
game. What was way off... ? He goes about 7 out of 19?

7 for 17

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

7 for 17

He also plays a bunch during junk time.
Junk time occurs as early as the 2nd quarter
in Seattle games.

This also cannot be discounted.

I like the kid. He is a good kid, and I believe he
will be a top shooter and scorer eventually. But right
now... I think the expectations of exactly how he would
play in an NBA game were off. I believe people thought the
kid could drive to the hoop, score in the paint, hit the long jumpers.
He basically has accomplished one of the three.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

He also plays a bunch during junk time.
Junk time occurs as early as the 2nd quarter
in Seattle games.

This also cannot be discounted.
I like the kid. He is a good kid, and I believe he
will be a top shooter and scorer eventually. But right
now... I think the expectations of exactly how he would
play in an NBA game were off. I believe people thought the
kid could drive to the hoop, score in the paint, hit the long jumpers.
He basically has accomplished one of the three.

I like that move. Saying something that not only has no basis but is irrefutable because there is no way to define or measure it. You should have been a traffic court lawyer. There is still time. Night school maybe? NBA scout is out of the picture of course.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I like that move. Saying something that not only has no basis but is irrefutable because there is no way to define or measure it. You should have been a traffic court lawyer. There is still time. Night school maybe? NBA scout is out of the picture of course.

No way to define or measure what?
Seattle is a bad team. You disagree?
Durant is not exactly getting the lock down
D put on him playing on a team that does not
stay close in very many games. You disagree?

Playing on a team that gets many more shots at the
baskets than a team like San Antonio because they play
very little D and do not spend a lot of time working the ball on
offense. You disagree?

By all Statistical categories Phoenix should consistently crush the
Spurs. But they dont. Why is this? Why do teams like the Pistons
rarely have statistical leaders in any category?
You are stat stuck.
But nonetheless a good fella that makes for good conversation.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

No way to define or measure what?
Seattle is a bad team. You disagree?
Durant is not exactly getting the lock down
D put on him playing on a team that does not
stay close in very many games. You disagree?

Playing on a team that gets many more shots at the
baskets than a team like San Antonio because they play
very little D and do not spend a lot of time working the ball on
offense. You disagree?

By all Statistical categories Phoenix should consistently crush the
Spurs. But they dont. Why is this? Why do teams like the Pistons
rarely have statistical leaders in any category?
You are stat stuck.
But nonetheless a good fella that makes for good conversation.

Seattle loses an average game by 7 points. So are you trying to say that the top scoring threat on an NBA team gets loose coverage because the other team knows it is going to win anyway? Wouldnt he as the primary point producer get more attention than an average player? So in the 13 games that they won, he wasnt on the court during the important possessions? That is a very shaky theory. Sure he is getting numbers in Seattle because they stink and he is kind of forced to. But his production is very good when you consider his age, experience level, lack of talented teammates and physical shortcomings.

[King Glorious]

My feeling is still that he's going to be a guy that gets you 20-23 a night for his career and nothing else. He may even get it up to the 25-26 a night range. As I said, there is nothing wrong with that at all. But there are a lot of guys that could do that in his situation. Rashard Lewis got them 22 a night playing with Ray Allen but gave them nothing else. No defense. No rebounding. No passing. Nothing else. My issue with Durant is that he's strictly a perimeter player. People looked at his rebounding numbers and assumed he was also an inside player and he's just not. He's an athletic player and he dominated guys that he was better than in college but he doesn't have those same physical advantages in the NBA. I think that the expecations for Durant were that he could come in and would be a guy that could get you 28 a night right off the bat, along with maybe 7-8 boards. Perhaps the expectations were unrealistic to begin with. But I don't think that 19 a night and 39% shooting and around four boards a night are what was expected of him. I discount all the comparisons to past players and what they did at his age, especially going further back. Kobe Bryant was straight out of high school and at 19, even though he was in his second season, he wasn't a starter. He played 79 games that year and only started one. He was playing behind Eddie Jones, who was an all-star at the time. Shaquille O'Neal was also on that team so Bryant was never the first scoring option on that team. LeBron was also straight out of high school. A lot of people like to look at the whole age thing and compare where people rank at the same ages. I hate every time I hear them compare what Kobe has done at certain ages to what Jordan had done at that same age. It's not accurate. I like to judge it by comparing guys at the same point in terms of NBA experience. The comparison to LeBron at 19 is better because they were the same age and both in their first year, although Durant does have the advantage in that he had a year of college under his belt and I do think that his experience with the Olympic team gave him even more of an advantage coming in. The key to judging Durant will be to see how he improves once he's got a real feel for the game. Notice how LeBron's numbers went way up in his second year. See how Kobe's improved once he was moved to a starter and had some experience. I want to see how Durant does before I say he didn't reach expectations. It's my feeling though that he'll end up being just like a Rashard Lewis or a Loul Deng or Richard Jefferson or a Jason Richardson or a Richard Hamilton. A guy that can consistently get you 20-25 but very little else. A guy that's a fringe all-star player but not the future hall of famer that many thought he'd be coming out.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

My feeling is still that he's going to be a guy that gets you 20-23 a night for his career and nothing else. He may even get it up to the 25-26 a night range. As I said, there is nothing wrong with that at all. But there are a lot of guys that could do that in his situation. Rashard Lewis got them 22 a night playing with Ray Allen but gave them nothing else. No defense. No rebounding. No passing. Nothing else. My issue with Durant is that he's strictly a perimeter player. People looked at his rebounding numbers and assumed he was also an inside player and he's just not. He's an athletic player and he dominated guys that he was better than in college but he doesn't have those same physical advantages in the NBA. I think that the expecations for Durant were that he could come in and would be a guy that could get you 28 a night right off the bat, along with maybe 7-8 boards. Perhaps the expectations were unrealistic to begin with. But I don't think that 19 a night and 39% shooting and around four boards a night are what was expected of him. I discount all the comparisons to past players and what they did at his age, especially going further back. Kobe Bryant was straight out of high school and at 19, even though he was in his second season, he wasn't a starter. He played 79 games that year and only started one. He was playing behind Eddie Jones, who was an all-star at the time. Shaquille O'Neal was also on that team so Bryant was never the first scoring option on that team. LeBron was also straight out of high school. A lot of people like to look at the whole age thing and compare where people rank at the same ages. I hate every time I hear them compare what Kobe has done at certain ages to what Jordan had done at that same age. It's not accurate. I like to judge it by comparing guys at the same point in terms of NBA experience. The comparison to LeBron at 19 is better because they were the same age and both in their first year, although Durant does have the advantage in that he had a year of college under his belt and I do think that his experience with the Olympic team gave him even more of an advantage coming in. The key to judging Durant will be to see how he improves once he's got a real feel for the game. Notice how LeBron's numbers went way up in his second year. See how Kobe's improved once he was moved to a starter and had some experience. I want to see how Durant does before I say he didn't reach expectations. It's my feeling though that he'll end up being just like a Rashard Lewis or a Loul Deng or Richard Jefferson or a Jason Richardson or a Richard Hamilton. A guy that can consistently get you 20-25 but very little else. A guy that's a fringe all-star player but not the future hall of famer that many thought he'd be coming out.

Though I may be a bit more optimistic about Durant than you are you make valid points. Except the point that he was going to be expected to score 28 per with 7 rebounds? Who expected that? And a year under Rick Barnes is probably a minus in the experience dept. (that should get Peegarden nuts)

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Though I may be a bit more optimistic about Durant than you are you make valid points. Except the point that he was going to be expected to score 28 per with 7 rebounds? Who expected that? And a year under Rick Barnes is probably a minus in the experience dept. (that should get Peegarden nuts)

Yes Texas is a bad team with Durant gone.
They have beaten the best teams in the Nation.
He is a terrible coach. They have absolutely no inside
game yet the can take out UCLA at LA, Tennessee, Kansas...
a pitiful coach. He works well with what he has got. I think he
is very good at utilizing talent properly, but not a great game coach.

I will however also note that I hate the style Texas plays right now, hate it.
They will lose to any top team that has a competent inside presence. Texas could easily take out Duke, and get crushed by North Carolina, that is the type of team they are.

What the heck was Barnes supposed to do with a kid who was only going to stay one year? I suppose Oden became a fundamental wonder after his one year at Ohio State? Both are raw in diff. areas.

I will however say that Durant is as good a shooter for a guy as long as he is that I have seen. If you watch his footwork and hands on the catch and shoot, it should take your breath away, thing of beauty.