Who Are You Talking To John?

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I say it because it's true....and you stated the opposite.

I'm a horseplayer, I am all for lower takeouts, but it's not a simple discussion, just as Steve suggests. Regardless, don't fall under the illusion that serious players aren't getting rebates. They are.

It's dependent on an arbitrary definition of "serious player" and jurisdictional factors should be considered when making that kind of blanket statement. But OK.

[cmorioles]

From the Crist article:

"First, in most cases track operators are powerless to set takeout rates, their hands tied by government regulators and budget officials who are unwilling to experiment with accepting short-term revenue losses in exchange for long-term growth."

Their hands never seem tied when it comes to getting increases.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

From the Crist article:

"First, in most cases track operators are powerless to set takeout rates, their hands tied by government regulators and budget officials who are unwilling to experiment with accepting short-term revenue losses in exchange for long-term growth."

Their hands never seem tied when it comes to getting increases.

Exactly.

I can't speak for other states, but I'm very dubious about that in Pennsylvania.

When I first went to the powers that be who reside in the building at PID... that was always the crutch they'd reply with. The State. Politics. Not entirely in our control. Blah, blah, blah.

Suddenly, a column appears in the newspaper arguing for takeout reductions and explaining how handicapping and betting on horses isn't something "mindless, like pushing a button or pulling a lever on a slot machine"

Suddenly, they're willing to jump through all of these supposed hoops with politicians.

PID has had two sharp takeout reductions. Perhaps coincidentally, but both came right after slots players were shamed in the front page of the Sports section in articles about takeout.

[Travis Stone]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

It's dependent on an arbitrary definition of "serious player" and jurisdictional factors should be considered when making that kind of blanket statement. But OK.

If you wanted to sign-up today with an outlet that provides rebates, you could, regardless of how much you play.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

If you wanted to sign-up today with an outlet that provides rebates, you could, regardless of how much you play.

Probably, but it all seems so dirty. Why the secrecy and the jumping through hoops just be able to bet at a reasonable price? That gets pretty old, and it smells bad too. It does nothing to help the troubled reputation of horse racing.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

If you wanted to sign-up today with an outlet that provides rebates, you could, regardless of how much you play.

This is absolutely false. I know of three NJ residents that legally can not get an acct threw a respectable onshore shop. Its no different for IL residents

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by Scav

This is absolutely false. I know of three NJ residents that legally can not get an acct threw a respectable onshore shop.

Yup, when the kids are in bed I will correct the rampant misinformation in this thread.

[Calzone Lord]

This is a key point and so well written by Crist:

On the contrary, every single long-term experiment with takeout reduction has shown that it increases handle, participation, and customer satisfaction – not necessarily because players are consciously aware of higher returns, but because they find themselves with a bit more money on hand that they reinvest over and over. They stay in action longer, and they receive more positive reinforcement to keep playing the game because their money seems to last longer and go farther.

If people go back and really study the betting end of the game from the late 1800's and early to mid 1900's.

They'll have a great idea of how much room for growth horse racing has if it can get away from the unbelievably draconian treatment it subjects to, or at least the bettors who don't know how to go about jumping through the hoops they need to jump through in order to get rebates.

Horse Racing is a game that should be greatly moved up by advancements in modern technology. It also still has the laws very much in it's favor.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

This is a key point and so well written by Crist:




If people go back and really study the betting end of the game from the late 1800's and early to mid 1900's.

They'll have a great idea of how much room for growth horse racing has if it can get away from the unbelievably draconian treatment it subjects to, or at least the bettors who don't know how to go about jumping through the hoops they need to jump through in order to get rebates.

Horse Racing is a game that should be greatly moved up by advancements in modern technology. It also still has the laws very much in it's favor.

it almost seems as tho racing execs don't want to concede they are in the gambling business. that they wish to ignore the thing that fuels the sport. not sure why, since casinos and poker are booming businesses.
they need to quit ignoring the bettors, and find a way to make them feel wanted and appreciated.
take out is like sales tax. the city where i work has raised the sales tax too much, and has run people out of town to shop. they figured as they continued to raise the %, the revenue would continue apace. it's dropped, because they went too far and killed the golden goose. and it's easier to send them away then it is to re-gain them, and their money.

[Calzone Lord]

They think the answer is to create a bunch more "customers" (bettors) out of thin air.

They're looking for some ingenious marketing gimmick that doesn't exist.

The only way you create a lot more bettors out of thin air is through sustained takeout reductions and betting exchanges.

Not only will those two thing create a massive amount of new customers, but they'll also spark existing horse players to bet a whole lot more money.

Ironically, the marketing gimmick they need... it's very successful winning horse players that people can relate to.

Men like Plunger Walton and Pittsburgh Phil were the two greatest marketing inventions horse racing ever had.

A guy who works in a factory in Pittsburgh for $5 a week and becomes a multi-millionaire by doing nothing else but betting horses...that's marketable. Dies at age 42 with a fortune worth over $84 million today, adjusted for inflation.

You think that's marketable? It is. It was. And it was for a long time after he was dead.

I'll tell you what isn't marketable. The perception the public has of people who bet on horses in 2013.

Why is the perception of people, now, who bet on horses, what it is?

How do you make horse racing marketable? Put an end to making your core customer so unmarketable.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Scav

This is absolutely false. I know of three NJ residents that legally can not get an acct threw a respectable onshore shop. Its no different for IL residents

Do we count the TVG rebates?

[Travis Stone]

Originally Posted by Scav

This is absolutely false. I know of three NJ residents that legally can not get an acct threw a respectable onshore shop. Its no different for IL residents

As for certain states... well yeah, Arizona, Texas... there are a bunch of states who can't bet period, much less with a rebate shop. I'm speaking in general terms. The fact folks in NJ can't bet is an issue that comes before takeout, because the takeout doesn't matter on a bet you can't or will never make.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

As for certain states... well yeah, Arizona, Texas... there are a bunch of states who can't bet period, much less with a rebate shop. I'm speaking in general terms. The fact folks in NJ can't bet is an issue that comes before takeout, because the takeout doesn't matter on a bet you can't or will never make.

Yea, actually getting all the racing players to be able to bet would be a first step for racing, they cant do that, why would they even care to try and make takeout changes!