The Great Derby Paradox

[pweizer]

It was a huge plus that they actually showed the Woodford reserve Turf Classic this year.

The big minus was not playing up the fact that the current horse of the year was participating. That was a real missed opportunity to show casual fans that racing exists at a high level beyond just the Derby.

Paul

[Cannon Shell]

I think that on marquee days the everyday issues that plague the sport just aren't apparent. We have big crowds, big pools and big, competitive quality fields. Most days we have small crowds, small pools and small, non competitive lacking in quality fields.

Some of the underlying issues in the sport that aren't being addressed are we have track ownership in many area's that is looking to marginalize their racing operations to the point where you have to question how long they until they try to separate themselves from it. Ironically CDI is one of those companies. Greenwood and Penn Nat'l gaming or Delaware or MNR have no love for pari-mutual gambling or racing. Hollywood is already doomed. Who knows what the plan for the Stronach tracks are post-Frank. This is a core issue that the average viewer watching the Derby telecast would find hard to believe.

The day to day fields in most locations are just not that good. There are a number of reasons for this and foal crop seems to be the favorite excuse but of course that is a weak argument being that this trend started long before a huge drop off in the numbers.

Takeout/pricing is still out of whack compared to competing forms of gambling.


I think that racing made huge mistakes in the late 80's/early 90's when simulcasting took off. What full card simulcasting did was take racing from a regional sport to a national sport and the truth is that the game never really learned how to adjust.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I think that on marquee days the everyday issues that plague the sport just aren't apparent. We have big crowds, big pools and big, competitive quality fields. Most days we have small crowds, small pools and small, non competitive lacking in quality fields.

Some of the underlying issues in the sport that aren't being addressed are we have track ownership in many area's that is looking to marginalize their racing operations to the point where you have to question how long they until they try to separate themselves from it. Ironically CDI is one of those companies. Greenwood and Penn Nat'l gaming or Delaware or MNR have no love for pari-mutual gambling or racing. Hollywood is already doomed. Who knows what the plan for the Stronach tracks are post-Frank. This is a core issue that the average viewer watching the Derby telecast would find hard to believe.

The day to day fields in most locations are just not that good. There are a number of reasons for this and foal crop seems to be the favorite excuse but of course that is a weak argument being that this trend started long before a huge drop off in the numbers.

Takeout/pricing is still out of whack compared to competing forms of gambling.


I think that racing made huge mistakes in the late 80's/early 90's when simulcasting took off. What full card simulcasting did was take racing from a regional sport to a national sport and the truth is that the game never really learned how to adjust.

What mistake was that? What do you think they should've done?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by jms62

What mistake was that? What do you think they should've done?

They completely underestimated it. The bigger tracks stupidly more or less gave away their product for close to nothing and the smaller tracks were naive enough to not think that their fans eventually wouldnt rather bet on the better product rather than the inferior live product.

That is the obvious flaw. What is less obvious is that at the point when it became inevitable that simulcasting was going to change the game, the tracks and horsemen and regulators failed to adopt similar rules and regulations so that the same $ increments were used universally, that stewards were using the same rules in making DQ's, that wagering rules regarding scratches, late scratches, shoeing changes, etc. were basically the same. It would have been easier to do it then than now and a lot of these things still aren't fixed.

In 1985 it didn't matter for the most part what happened in other jurisdictions. Now 90% of the handle coming from places other than the actual racetrack.

[justindew]

I don't think the issues are as in-depth as some might suggest. It's really pretty simple. The takeout, combined with the perception on the part of the public that if you don't know who is cheating you are at a disadvantage to those who do know, give the casual gambler the impression that there are easier ways to win money.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I think that on marquee days the everyday issues that plague the sport just aren't apparent. We have big crowds, big pools and big, competitive quality fields. Most days we have small crowds, small pools and small, non competitive lacking in quality fields.

Some of the underlying issues in the sport that aren't being addressed are we have track ownership in many area's that is looking to marginalize their racing operations to the point where you have to question how long they until they try to separate themselves from it. Ironically CDI is one of those companies. Greenwood and Penn Nat'l gaming or Delaware or MNR have no love for pari-mutual gambling or racing. Hollywood is already doomed. Who knows what the plan for the Stronach tracks are post-Frank. This is a core issue that the average viewer watching the Derby telecast would find hard to believe.

The day to day fields in most locations are just not that good. There are a number of reasons for this and foal crop seems to be the favorite excuse but of course that is a weak argument being that this trend started long before a huge drop off in the numbers.

Takeout/pricing is still out of whack compared to competing forms of gambling.


I think that racing made huge mistakes in the late 80's/early 90's when simulcasting took off. What full card simulcasting did was take racing from a regional sport to a national sport and the truth is that the game never really learned how to adjust.

Pretty much nails it. I'm not sure what the fix is, other than less racing. There aren't enough horses, and the horses we have don't run enough, to support all the race dates we have. Takeout is bad, but could probably live with it IF fields were better and more competitive.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Pretty much nails it. I'm not sure what the fix is, other than less racing. There aren't enough horses, and the horses we have don't run enough, to support all the race dates we have. Takeout is bad, but could probably live with it IF fields were better and more competitive.

I dont buy the less horses matters that much. There are certainly less owners but there are a lot of horses out there.

Less racing doesn't work on its own. Racing Secretaries have painted themselves in a proverbial corner by writing far too many conditioned claimers. They know it too but all say the same thing (at least in the mid-atlantic) hat they would change it if the other tracks would too.

This allows claimers to be campaigned like allowance horses which is not how it is supposed to be. Rather than race the horse and move them up and down in class based on results, everyone wants to wait for their condition. When you have 5000 nw2, 5000 nw3, 5000 nw4, 5000 nw1 in 6 months, 5000 nw2 in 6 months, 5000 nw1 year going short and long for colts and fillies divides up a huge class of horses that used to be known as 5000 claimers. In effect you have created 24 classes of 5000 claimers. The same thing exists for higher priced claimers as well. Is it any wonder why they don't get full fields? Owners and trainers will wait for the exact condition they are eligible for. It might come in a week or it might come in 5 weeks depending on what fills. When your cheapest horses are waiting 5/6 weeks to run, you will have issues. The claiming ladder is gone because the higher claimers mostly have conditions attached as well. So if you claim a 5000 nw3 horse that gets beat a nose you are either going to wait out jail (30 days) or try a 7500 nw3 whenever that race may go. By dividing up claimers into so many different classes it dilutes the pool as a whole which really makes their jobs harder.

As for the big tracks the disparity between haves and have nots grows wider every day. Until that is addressed I can't imagine how the cards could possible improve.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I dont buy the less horses matters that much. There are certainly less owners but there are a lot of horses out there.

Less racing doesn't work on its own. Racing Secretaries have painted themselves in a proverbial corner by writing far too many conditioned claimers. They know it too but all say the same thing (at least in the mid-atlantic) hat they would change it if the other tracks would too.

This allows claimers to be campaigned like allowance horses which is not how it is supposed to be. Rather than race the horse and move them up and down in class based on results, everyone wants to wait for their condition. When you have 5000 nw2, 5000 nw3, 5000 nw4, 5000 nw1 in 6 months, 5000 nw2 in 6 months, 5000 nw1 year going short and long for colts and fillies divides up a huge class of horses that used to be known as 5000 claimers. In effect you have created 24 classes of 5000 claimers. The same thing exists for higher priced claimers as well. Is it any wonder why they don't get full fields? Owners and trainers will wait for the exact condition they are eligible for. It might come in a week or it might come in 5 weeks depending on what fills. When your cheapest horses are waiting 5/6 weeks to run, you will have issues. The claiming ladder is gone because the higher claimers mostly have conditions attached as well. So if you claim a 5000 nw3 horse that gets beat a nose you are either going to wait out jail (30 days) or try a 7500 nw3 whenever that race may go. By dividing up claimers into so many different classes it dilutes the pool as a whole which really makes their jobs harder.

As for the big tracks the disparity between haves and have nots grows wider every day. Until that is addressed I can't imagine how the cards could possible improve.

I probably don't pay enough attention to this situation but your post makes some sense.

[Alabama Stakes]

[QUOTE


I think that racing made huge mistakes in the late 80's/early 90's when simulcasting took off. What full card simulcasting did was take racing from a regional sport to a national sport and the truth is that the game never really learned how to adjust.[/quote]


keen insight. it was rude awakening for those of us who dominated the local scene, and then started betting the big tracks, The competition is much tougher. when you're betting the local product mook money is all over the place. when you start competing against the likes of Mr. Byk and some of you guys, you get beat up. You become the mook money. It's a tough pill to swallow. Betting the local product is still profitable, but you have to be there, and it's tough to go everyday when you're the youngest guy in the track. I always want to be the oldest guy wherever I am. I miss going. Thank God for Saratoga.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Alabama Stakes

keen insight. it was rude awakening for those of us who dominated the local scene, and then started betting the big tracks, The competition is much tougher. when you're betting the local product mook money is all over the place. when you start competing against the likes of Mr. Byk and some of you guys, you get beat up. You become the mook money. It's a tough pill to swallow. Betting the local product is still profitable, but you have to be there, and it's tough to go everyday when you're the youngest guy in the track. I always want to be the oldest guy wherever I am. I miss going. Thank God for Saratoga.

Thanks.. I laughed coffee through my nose and am hurting right now

[Alabama Stakes]

Originally Posted by jms62

Thanks.. I laughed coffee through my nose and am hurting right now

I'm glad I've finished mine. Mike Welsch was the king at suffolk, well actually The Fox. Then he went to Calder to be DRF's man there. J Stone hit a big pick 6 and left. That left the disciples of JJ Kelly. We kicked ass for years, believe it or not. When simulcasting came, we were basically betting against a bunch of people sitting around Beulah park or Thisledown who look up at the TV and see 3 minutes to post at Suffolkand bet. If you are at the track on the rail everyday, for every race, you are supposed to know more than people just betting on TV. It was great while it lasted....then came the dime super, and it was over.
Betting against the best will make one crazy and broke. Kind of where I am after the bloodbath over the weekend. Sane and fat knot of dough was way better. Stay on the good foot !

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by jms62

Thanks.. I laughed coffee through my nose and am hurting right now

what andy wrote is spot on..imo

[Revidere]

Originally Posted by Alabama Stakes

[QUOTE


I think that racing made huge mistakes in the late 80's/early 90's when simulcasting took off. What full card simulcasting did was take racing from a regional sport to a national sport and the truth is that the game never really learned how to adjust.

keen insight. it was rude awakening for those of us who dominated the local scene, and then started betting the big tracks, The competition is much tougher. when you're betting the local product mook money is all over the place. when you start competing against the likes of Mr. Byk and some of you guys, you get beat up. You become the mook money. It's a tough pill to swallow. Betting the local product is still profitable, but you have to be there, and it's tough to go everyday when you're the youngest guy in the track. I always want to be the oldest guy wherever I am. I miss going. Thank God for Saratoga.[/quote]

Started long before that. Off Track Betting was one of the key starting points, especially in New York.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Revidere

[/b]

keen insight. it was rude awakening for those of us who dominated the local scene, and then started betting the big tracks, The competition is much tougher. when you're betting the local product mook money is all over the place. when you start competing against the likes of Mr. Byk and some of you guys, you get beat up. You become the mook money. It's a tough pill to swallow. Betting the local product is still profitable, but you have to be there, and it's tough to go everyday when you're the youngest guy in the track. I always want to be the oldest guy wherever I am. I miss going. Thank God for Saratoga.

Started long before that. Off Track Betting was one of the key starting points, especially in New York.[/quote]

i agree, i think opening otb's was a good intention, but it's been a bad thing for tracks. i'm one of those who bets when i go to the track, seldom bet away from it, and have never been to an otb. and when i'm at a track, typically don't fool with other tracks-i limit my bets the vast majority of the time to the live card.
but, so many go to otb's instead of the track, which is why everyone sees the daily attendance and says racing is 'dying'. and the tracks don't benefit from the betting, because they have to share with otb's and others. plenty of money from bettors, but it's not all going to the facility who is providing the product and putting out the purse monies and other expenses.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

Started long before that. Off Track Betting was one of the key starting points, especially in New York.

i agree, i think opening otb's was a good intention, but it's been a bad thing for tracks. i'm one of those who bets when i go to the track, seldom bet away from it, and have never been to an otb. and when i'm at a track, typically don't fool with other tracks-i limit my bets the vast majority of the time to the live card.
but, so many go to otb's instead of the track, which is why everyone sees the daily attendance and says racing is 'dying'. and the tracks don't benefit from the betting, because they have to share with otb's and others. plenty of money from bettors, but it's not all going to the facility who is providing the product and putting out the purse monies and other expenses.[/quote]

I dont think the concept of OTB's is bad. Obviously the set up in NY was terrible but allowing people to bet without being physically present is not bad.

Allowing 3rd parties to come into the equation and basically leech off of the business wasn't a brilliant move.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Revidere

[/b]

Started long before that. Off Track Betting was one of the key starting points, especially in New York.[/quote]

Not nationally it didn't. Off track betting was pretty much restricted to NY in those days

[Revidere]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Started long before that. Off Track Betting was one of the key starting points, especially in New York.

Not nationally it didn't. Off track betting was pretty much restricted to NY in those days[/quote]

I didn't say nationally, but you could make a case that in the 70's New York was the racing capital, and whatever reason they could not work together, the result (along with other factors) effectively chopped down racing's largest tree.