dear bernardini fans....

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

I'm going to ask a question that everyone usually hates. Why?

Ghostzapper will not even make the Hall of Fame. He was too lightly raced.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

This is precisely the kind of criticism I have ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM with.

You're completely right. He never proved on the track that he was great. Those who feel that he was immensely talented and wasn't on his A game in the BCC will continue to think he's great. Those who think that was his best effort will continue to think what they think.

What bothers me is the guys who come on here proclaiming his BCC SECOND-PLACE FINISH (Not up the track like their hero Lava Man) is indisputable evidence that he's a fraud. Listen, none of us KNOW ****.

People like me and KY Roses will continue to think he was one of the best horses we've ever seen. People like Sniper and Windu and ArlJim will continue to think he was an okay 3-year-old. There's no proving either opinion wrong, and they should be stated as that, opinions.

That I'm fine with. Just sick of hearing that people know he didn't run his race when really it is just their opinion that he was a lot better than he showed in the BC Classic. He's certainly a lot more than an ok 3yo. I think he's a very good horse that could have been a great one if he improved next year. Unfortunately we'll never know, and that pisses me off more than anything.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Bold Reasoning

Ghostzapper will not even make the Hall of Fame. He was too lightly raced.

You're right. He may not, but that horse was brillant. He is one of the fastest horses to have ever lived.

It would be a shame though if a horse like Barbaro made the Hall of Fame and Ghostzapper did not.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

This is precisely the kind of criticism I have ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM with.

You're completely right. He never proved on the track that he was great. Those who feel that he was immensely talented and wasn't on his A game in the BCC will continue to think he's great. Those who think that was his best effort will continue to think what they think.

What bothers me is the guys who come on here proclaiming his BCC SECOND-PLACE FINISH (Not up the track like their hero Lava Man) is indisputable evidence that he's a fraud. Listen, none of us KNOW ****.

People like me and KY Roses will continue to think he was one of the best horses we've ever seen. People like Sniper and Windu and ArlJim will continue to think he was an okay 3-year-old. There's no proving either opinion wrong, and they should be stated as that, opinions.

yeah, I think that about covers it in a nutshell.

He got passed by a great horse.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

He got passed by a great horse.

I can't really argue with that Pillow Pants. We were blessed with some incredible talent this year in Barbaro, Bernardini, and Invasor.

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

You're right. He may not, but that horse was brillant. He is one of the fastest horses to have ever lived.

It would be a shame though if a horse like Barbaro made the Hall of Fame and Ghostzapper did not.

If Ghostzapper had raced more, we would have called him Dr. Fager II. He is one helluva horse.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

yeah, I think that about covers it in a nutshell.

I agree with that too.

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

I can't really argue with that Pillow Pants. We were blessed with some incredible talent this year in Barbaro, Bernardini, and Invasor.

It's a shame we didn't get to see these three run against each other next year. It can be a cruel game at times.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

Yes, those are facts, and it is also a fact that the horse got sandwiched hard and bumped around in the first turn. It is also a fact that the horse dropped back to fifth place after coming up to fourth place on the backstretch signaling that he wasn't on his A game. It is also a fact that after getting hit like that, that he wasn't pulling at Javier like he did in the rest of his races. It is also a fact that Javier knew that Bernardini was not himself, so he started asking him just after the half mile pole. It is also a fact that Bernardini did not explode with as much force around the final turn as he did in the Preakness.

Invasor was is not the undefeated horse of the year. Discreet Cat beat Invasor in Dubai (Invasor was a distant fourth).

If you're afraid, then quit replying to me.

Thats what happens when racing in big fields, they bump, thay have to go wide, etc. Before this race you may recall that I said that Bernardini had never been in a battle and that Invasor had many times shown himself to be able to battle and come out on top. Talk to you insider friends about that, maybe it will make some sense.

I thought Bernardini exploded quite well on the turn, to me it was a powerful move. He could never have done that and finished so close to Invasor as he did if he was not himself and not on his A game. The whole thing people like you missed was how good Invasor is. That does not mean you have to bring Bernardini down. If Bernardini compares well talentwise with Seattle Slew, what comparisons should be made with Invasor?

In my mind, Invasor is undefeated because I throw out the Dubai race because I think it is suspect from what I can tell. If there was ever a case of a horse not being on his A game that was it. He is undefeated in the Western Hemisphere.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

Well then that's your opinion, but I have always said that he reminded me of the Slew and he most certainly does. I believe that he was as talented as him, but of course, you couldn't actually put him in the same realm because Bernardini didn't race as a four year old and Slew accomplished much more on the track. Bernardini is going to become an outstanding sire though. As a stallion, he has it all.

i won't rehash slews accomplishments at two, three and four. everyone knows his record.
i don't agree bernardini showed as much talent. he certainly didn't show any precocity as slew did. and of course slew never allowed his peers to catch up with him either.

as for having it all as a stallion...so did plugged nickel. a lot of horses with fantastic pedigrees end up standing in obscure places for less than huge money. bernardini will have a better shot than many at making it, as he'll get the BEST of mares. but he still has a an 80% chance of being a failure.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

If you have watched the horse's races critically, you would have realized by the half mile in the BCC that the horse was not on his A game.

he ran figures on par with his others this year. he ran his race. he just had better competition this time. and that made all the difference.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

Thats what happens when racing in big fields, they bump, thay have to go wide, etc. Before this race you may recall that I said that Bernardini had never been in a battle and that Invasor had many times shown himself to be able to battle and come out on top. Talk to you insider friends about that, maybe it will make some sense.

I thought Bernardini exploded quite well on the turn, to me it was a powerful move. He could never have done that and finished so close to Invasor as he did if he was not himself and not on his A game. The whole thing people like you missed was how good Invasor is. That does not mean you have to bring Bernardini down. If Bernardini compares well talentwise with Seattle Slew, what comparisons should be made with Invasor?

In my mind, Invasor is undefeated because I throw out the Dubai race because I think it is suspect from what I can tell. If there was ever a case of a horse not being on his A game that was it. He is undefeated in the Western Hemisphere.

Your first paragraph makes perfect sense and I already know all of that kind of stuff.

However, I also know that horses that get sandwiched as Bernardini did usually can not run their best race after the fact. We saw it with Alex in the Derby too.

See, I think that Bernardini is more talented than Invasor and just didn't fire his best race. Although, Invasor is most certainly a lovely horse.

And if you can throw out Invasor's race in Dubai, then I am going to throw out Bernardini's BCC at Churchill because I think that it was suspect since he didn't run his A game. LOL.

Let's call this at a draw. I'm happy with the arguments that both of us have presented, and we really can't carry this any further. You like Invasor better, but respect Bernardini, while I like Bernardini better, but respect Invasor. If nothing else, some good information was conveyed, and that is what this board is all about.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

he ran figures on par with his others this year. he ran his race. he just had better competition this time. and that made all the difference.

I don't trust those figures for that race. IMO, they were too high based on the final time of the race.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

I don't trust those figures for that race. IMO, they were too high based on the final time of the race.

beyers were right for all his others, but not this one?

Originally Posted by Danzig188

beyers were right for all his others, but not this one?

Don't you get it yet Zieg? Here is how it works. If they don't like a horse, lets say St Liam, when he gets beat shipping to another track, he ran his A race but he just wasnt good enough and his other figures were too high.
When a horse they like gets beat, he definitely didn't run his A race and they gave him a figure too low to boot.
In other words when they are right they are right, and when they are wrong they are right also.
Come on Zieg, get with the program!!!!!!
I mean, the fact that his internal fractions were the same as his other races, and that those fractions didn't get him an easy perfect trip with a loose lead or clear stalking position is absolutely irrelevent!!!!!
I'm very disapppointed in you Zieg, trying to use common sense and logic will get you absolutely nowhere in arguing affairs of the heart. Now go sniff some paint thinner, knock a few dozen points off your iq, and get back to us.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

Your first paragraph makes perfect sense and I already know all of that kind of stuff.

However, I also know that horses that get sandwiched as Bernardini did usually can not run their best race after the fact. We saw it with Alex in the Derby too.

See, I think that Bernardini is more talented than Invasor and just didn't fire his best race. Although, Invasor is most certainly a lovely horse.

And if you can throw out Invasor's race in Dubai, then I am going to throw out Bernardini's BCC at Churchill because I think that it was suspect since he didn't run his A game. LOL.

Let's call this at a draw. I'm happy with the arguments that both of us have presented, and we really can't carry this any further. You like Invasor better, but respect Bernardini, while I like Bernardini better, but respect Invasor. If nothing else, some good information was conveyed, and that is what this board is all about.

Well said!
No problem, we'll agree to disagree.

[avance2000]

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

Let's call this at a draw.

Ummmm no. Let's not call it a draw. Invasor beat Bernardini. We don't need to call it a draw. As for your comparison to Slew.....that is FAR from a draw.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Don't you get it yet Zieg? Here is how it works. If they don't like a horse, lets say St Liam, when he gets beat shipping to another track, he ran his A race but he just wasnt good enough and his other figures were too high.
When a horse they like gets beat, he definitely didn't run his A race and they gave him a figure too low to boot.
In other words when they are right they are right, and when they are wrong they are right also.
Come on Zieg, get with the program!!!!!!
I mean, the fact that his internal fractions were the same as his other races, and that those fractions didn't get him an easy perfect trip with a loose lead or clear stalking position is absolutely irrelevent!!!!!
I'm very disapppointed in you Zieg, trying to use common sense and logic will get you absolutely nowhere in arguing affairs of the heart. Now go sniff some paint thinner, knock a few dozen points off your iq, and get back to us.

classic oracle. thank you -- this is why i continue to risk your wrath and the embarassment that often follows several years later -- because every now and then i get to read a post like this.

made work enjoyable for a few minutes

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

classic oracle. thank you -- this is why i continue to risk your wrath and the embarassment that often follows several years later -- because every now and then i get to read a post like this.

made work enjoyable for a few minutes

Dude you are a good guy, I especially liked your letter to the DRF. When we are jawing horses, it ain't personal, not just with you but with anyone.