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#41
12-14-2012, 05:10 PM
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#43
12-14-2012, 08:48 PM
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I didn't realize you no longer had them. I was curious as to why you clipped off the top three finishers portion of the pps for GZ and CR. Personally, I am suspicious of some of those figures that GZ's opponents earned while running huge and new career bests while only running against GZ. At least CR destroyed a legitimately consistent and top notch opponent in crushing Medaglio D'Oro, who was MUCH better than pretty much anything GZ ever beat. (edit. I forgot GZ beat a nice horse in St. Liam) And Special Ring, while not an all time great on turf, was certainly a very tough horse. Last edited by Indian Charlie : 12-14-2012 at 09:09 PM.
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#44
12-14-2012, 08:58 PM
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I know my original statement is going to be difficult for most people to believe, but I watched that horse very closely as a two year old and early three year old, and that horse could flat out run, at any distance. That was a special race horse, and if he'd been handled by non imbecilic connections, would have been hailed as one of the great horses from that decade. That is the point I'm trying to make. The idea that he was strictly a sprinter, now that's the idea that is completely ridiculous. If you have access to videos of his racing dating from his monster 2yo msw win through his SA Derby appearance, take the time to watch those races. I really doubt you'll come away from that thinking it was his precociousness that 'kept' him competitive. Also, try to remember just how horrible Randy Bradshaw was, as well as imagining yourself running a marathon while anemic, which greatly diminishes your ability to get oxygen to your muscle cells. That was an all around awesome race horse.
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#45
12-14-2012, 09:07 PM
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The Iselin was a terrible field and was, yes, another four horse field. The Woodward? St. Liam, a legitimate top class horse, beat the third horse by 9. While you could make an argument for this race being fractured, Bowmans Band figured to lose by 9 to St. Liam. As for the BCC, I can't really say. PleasantlyPerfect could run on his best day, but his two previous races were a loss against Choctaw Nation and a hard fought win over the bestest horse of the decade, Perfect Drift.
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#46
12-14-2012, 09:20 PM
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How can you be confident in that? Uncle Mo had three starts as a 2yo, one of which was a msw. Stevie Wonderboy was not a sound horse at all. War Pass? Do you think he suddenly became unsound when January 1 rolled around? Speaking of War Pass, has he sired anything useful besides maybe Javas War? He was an intriguing stallion prospect I thought. Might have been a terrible sire, or possibly a really great one.
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#47
12-15-2012, 04:59 AM
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Roses in May was pretty darn good. Azeri, while not at her peak, was still the champion older mare in '04. Birdstone was a quality horse at 10f+ coming off two nice wins. Even Funny Cide was in pretty good form that fall coming off his win in the JCGC. That was a pretty nice field.
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#48
12-15-2012, 06:20 AM
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I think it is a matter of what you prefer when deciding on who's the best. Some place more emphasis on durability and consistency. Others, myself among them, place more emphasis on who was the best at their best, whether that best was once or repeated several times. I don't think either preference is wrong. Calzone asked if Bo Jackson was better than Emmitt Smith? I say without question yes. The test question for me is simple. Could one do what the other did? Bo obviously was not able to keep healthy as Smith was but it's very easy to reason that with the same health and longevity, Jackson would be able to eclipse Smith’s numbers but Smith could never do what Jackson did. I think you have to define whether you are asking best career or just best. They aren't the same. I go back to 2005. St Liam was voted the champion older male and horse of the year. I doubt anyone disagrees that Ghostzapper was the actual best horse to race in North America that year. What is the point or the value in awarding one when everyone knows that the winner wasn't the best? It's like awarding Charles Barkley the MVP award while saying Michael Jordan is the best player in the game and then watching Jordan beat Barkley to win the championship.
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The real horses of the year (1986-2020) Manila, Java Gold, Alysheba, Sunday Silence, Go for Wand, In Excess, Paseana, Kotashaan, Holy Bull, Cigar, Alphabet Soup, Formal Gold, Skip Away, Artax, Tiznow, Point Given, Azeri, Candy Ride, Smarty Jones, Ghostzapper, Invasor, Curlin, Zenyatta, Zenyatta, Goldikova, Havre de Grace, Wise Dan, Wise Dan, California Chrome, American Pharoah, Arrogate, Gun Runner, Accelerate, Maximum Security, Gamine
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#49
12-15-2012, 07:28 AM
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Enjoy the list and debate, It's hard not to place Saint Liam behind Ghostzapper.
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Good jockeys don't need instructions and bad ones don't follow them Last edited by Bogey : 12-15-2012 at 06:43 PM.
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#50
12-15-2012, 07:41 AM
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Just pathetically and painfully stupid. Horses are rated by body of work. How hard is that to understand for anyone with an IQ over 60? When you rate 2yo's you compare 2yo form VS 2yo form. When you rate older horses -- you compare 4yo and up form VS 4yo and up form. Candy Ride had one great race and two good races. Not enough body of work to rate with the best older horses .... why? Because he was didn't stay sound. The fact that 2yo's like Uncle Mo, War Pass, Macho Uno, and Stevie Wonderboy were all a bunch of cripples doesn't disqualify them ... because their 2yo form is superior to the 2yo form of other champions of the decade. In other words, soundness issues prevented Candy Ride from running more than one great race. Ghostzapper had 5 great races. Horses like Uncle Mo, War Par, Macho Uno and Stevie Wonderboy all had more than one great 2yo performance.
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#52
12-15-2012, 08:30 AM
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The horse who finished 4th and last in the Top Fool was a Grade 1 winner that season. It was a decent race.  Quote:
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This is like mentioning that Bobby Frankel's barn was in the middle of a 1-for-38 slump when Candy Ride beat Medaglia D' Oro. Pleasantly Perfect was a good horse, in good form and he ran his good race when he finished 3rd by 7 lengths in the Breeders Cup Classic. Roses In May, the 2nd place finisher in that BC Classic, was also a good horse ... he won the Dubai World Cup with ease two starts later and came into the race very accomplished.
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#53
12-15-2012, 08:37 AM
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Second, every figure maker known to man had all of Ghostzapper's races insanely fast. Everything was fairly cut and dry about the figures for his races. That is why every figure maker had all of his races fast. Perhaps, in some great conspiracy, the track maintenance crew souped up the track right before all of Ghostzapper's races ... and the track maintenance crew slowed it down right after all of his races?
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#54
12-15-2012, 08:39 AM
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#55
12-15-2012, 02:50 PM
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__________________
RIP Monroe.
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#56
12-15-2012, 02:53 PM
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no chesterhouse..list incomplete..
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#57
12-15-2012, 03:13 PM
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He did impressively win the Arlington Million in his swan song ... but that was it.
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#58
12-16-2012, 01:50 AM
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Yep, just looked it up. Second in the Read.
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#59
12-16-2012, 09:47 AM
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I am obviously biased but: Pim Special, Suburban, Whitney, BCClassic, Donn. Plus Dubai win. 6 consecutive grade 1 wins. Only loss was at dubai of a 5 month layoff, before he started his USA campaign of five consecutive grade 1s. Last edited by Invasor : 12-16-2012 at 09:52 AM. Reason: All of this with Fernando Jara up which is no advantage imo
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#60
12-16-2012, 10:10 AM
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He was a power plodder and I definitely don't think he was as talented as Medaglia D' Oro or Congaree ... but his resume was in fact clearly better. Some of his Grade 1 wins were over soft competition. In the Pimlico Special, Wanderin Boy was 4/5 and Harlington 2/1. In the Suburban, Wild Dessert and Andromidea's Hero were 2nd and 3rd. In the Whitney, Sun King, West Virginia, and We Can Seek made up the 2 through 4 finishers. In the Donn, Hesanoldsalt, and A. P Arrow were 2nd and 3rd. Don't get me wrong, Invasor was an outstanding horse with a great resume ... but he won some very soft Gr 1's and his BC Classic win came in a fast paced 10f race that suits his power plodding style ... and his chief rival Bernardini (who I tried to beat) was the victim of a pretty terrible ride.
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