Top Thoroughbreds (2000 to present)

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by golfer

Ghostzapper's races are OBVIOUSLY better, as charts are in LARGE, EASY TO READ print. Candy Ride, I have to squint and use a magnifying glass

I sent Indian Charlie a ton of PP's for good foreign horses. My computer crashed a few months later. He has them and I don't.

This is all I have left for Candy Ride:

[Calzone Lord]

[parsixfarms]

I like most of the lists. A few horses that I would consider for inclusion:

2YO male sprinter: Cuvee.

2YO turf filly: Melhor Ainda.

3YO turf male: War Chant.

Older male sprinter: Speightstown.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Look at the gaps from 2nd place to 3rd place in those races. All of those races fractured.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Look at the gaps from 2nd place to 3rd place in those races. All of those races fractured.

The Tom Fool was a four horse field.

The Iselin was a terrible field and was, yes, another four horse field.

The Woodward? St. Liam, a legitimate top class horse, beat the third horse by 9. While you could make an argument for this race being fractured, Bowmans Band figured to lose by 9 to St. Liam.

As for the BCC, I can't really say. PleasantlyPerfect could run on his best day, but his two previous races were a loss against Choctaw Nation and a hard fought win over the bestest horse of the decade, Perfect Drift.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

As for the BCC, I can't really say. PleasantlyPerfect could run on his best day, but his two previous races were a loss against Choctaw Nation and a hard fought win over the bestest horse of the decade, Perfect Drift.

But Pleasantly Perfect was hardly the only good horse Ghostzapper beat that day.
Roses in May was pretty darn good.
Azeri, while not at her peak, was still the champion older mare in '04.
Birdstone was a quality horse at 10f+ coming off two nice wins.
Even Funny Cide was in pretty good form that fall coming off his win in the JCGC.

That was a pretty nice field.

[King Glorious]

I think it is a matter of what you prefer when deciding on who's the best. Some place more emphasis on durability and consistency. Others, myself among them, place more emphasis on who was the best at their best, whether that best was once or repeated several times. I don't think either preference is wrong. Calzone asked if Bo Jackson was better than Emmitt Smith? I say without question yes. The test question for me is simple. Could one do what the other did? Bo obviously was not able to keep healthy as Smith was but it's very easy to reason that with the same health and longevity, Jackson would be able to eclipse Smith’s numbers but Smith could never do what Jackson did. I think you have to define whether you are asking best career or just best. They aren't the same. I go back to 2005. St Liam was voted the champion older male and horse of the year. I doubt anyone disagrees that Ghostzapper was the actual best horse to race in North America that year. What is the point or the value in awarding one when everyone knows that the winner wasn't the best? It's like awarding Charles Barkley the MVP award while saying Michael Jordan is the best player in the game and then watching Jordan beat Barkley to win the championship.

[Bogey]

Enjoy the list and debate, It's hard not to place Saint Liam behind Ghostzapper.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

The Tom Fool was a four horse field.

So was Candy Ride's Pacific Classic.

The horse who finished 4th and last in the Top Fool was a Grade 1 winner that season. It was a decent race.

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

The Iselin was a terrible field and was, yes, another four horse field.

Presidentialaffiar loved a wet racetrack -- and he was 21+ lengths clear of the third place finisher.

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

The Woodward? St. Liam, a legitimate top class horse, beat the third horse by 9. While you could make an argument for this race being fractured, Bowmans Band figured to lose by 9 to St. Liam.

Ghostzapper won that race despite Saint Liam herding him out to the middle of the track.

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

As for the BCC, I can't really say. PleasantlyPerfect could run on his best day, but his two previous races were a loss against Choctaw Nation and a hard fought win over the bestest horse of the decade, Perfect Drift.

Complete nonsense.

This is like mentioning that Bobby Frankel's barn was in the middle of a 1-for-38 slump when Candy Ride beat Medaglia D' Oro.

Pleasantly Perfect was a good horse, in good form and he ran his good race when he finished 3rd by 7 lengths in the Breeders Cup Classic.

Roses In May, the 2nd place finisher in that BC Classic, was also a good horse ... he won the Dubai World Cup with ease two starts later and came into the race very accomplished.

[golfer]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

I sent Indian Charlie a ton of PP's for good foreign horses. My computer crashed a few months later. He has them and I don't.

This is all I have left for Candy Ride:

Coincidence? Doubt it.

I'm with you on Ghostzapper. Just wish he could have run more frequently.

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

I sent Indian Charlie a ton of PP's for good foreign horses. My computer crashed a few months later. He has them and I don't.

This is all I have left for Candy Ride:

This PP shows Candy ride as the #2 and Megdalio D'Oro in bold. Was this a 2003 BC Classic early edition?

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by helicopter11

This PP shows Candy ride as the #2 and Megdalio D'Oro in bold. Was this a 2003 BC Classic early edition?

bc future advanced pps

[Conrad]

Invasor !

[Invasor]

Originally Posted by Conrad

Invasor !

This.

I am obviously biased but: Pim Special, Suburban, Whitney, BCClassic, Donn.
Plus Dubai win. 6 consecutive grade 1 wins.
Only loss was at dubai of a 5 month layoff, before he started his USA campaign of five consecutive grade 1s.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Invasor

This.

I am obviously biased but: Pim Special, Suburban, Whitney, BCClassic, Donn.
Plus Dubai win. 6 consecutive grade 1 wins.
Only loss was at dubai of a 5 month layoff, before he started his USA campaign of five consecutive grade 1s.

I think Invasor could be as high as #3.

He was a power plodder and I definitely don't think he was as talented as Medaglia D' Oro or Congaree ... but his resume was in fact clearly better.

Some of his Grade 1 wins were over soft competition.

In the Pimlico Special, Wanderin Boy was 4/5 and Harlington 2/1.

In the Suburban, Wild Dessert and Andromidea's Hero were 2nd and 3rd.

In the Whitney, Sun King, West Virginia, and We Can Seek made up the 2 through 4 finishers.

In the Donn, Hesanoldsalt, and A. P Arrow were 2nd and 3rd.

Don't get me wrong, Invasor was an outstanding horse with a great resume ... but he won some very soft Gr 1's and his BC Classic win came in a fast paced 10f race that suits his power plodding style ... and his chief rival Bernardini (who I tried to beat) was the victim of a pretty terrible ride.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

I think Invasor could be as high as #3.

He was a power plodder and I definitely don't think he was as talented as Medaglia D' Oro or Congaree ... but his resume was in fact clearly better.

Some of his Grade 1 wins were over soft competition.

In the Pimlico Special, Wanderin Boy was 4/5 and Harlington 2/1.

In the Suburban, Wild Dessert and Andromidea's Hero were 2nd and 3rd.

In the Whitney, Sun King, West Virginia, and We Can Seek made up the 2 through 4 finishers.

In the Donn, Hesanoldsalt, and A. P Arrow were 2nd and 3rd.

Don't get me wrong, Invasor was an outstanding horse with a great resume ... but he won some very soft Gr 1's and his BC Classic win came in a fast paced 10f race that suits his power plodding style ... and his chief rival Bernardini (who I tried to beat) was the victim of a pretty terrible ride.

I still get excited watching that Whitney Stakes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW1331dchn8

Premium Tap was rounding into a decent horse. Wow was Flower Alley terrible as a 4 year old.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

I sent Indian Charlie a ton of PP's for good foreign horses. My computer crashed a few months later. He has them and I don't.

This is all I have left for Candy Ride:

Yeah, I still have all those pps for horses going back to the 80s, including every single horse to have run in the BCC (as of a couple of years ago).

I didn't realize you no longer had them. I was curious as to why you clipped off the top three finishers portion of the pps for GZ and CR.

Personally, I am suspicious of some of those figures that GZ's opponents earned while running huge and new career bests while only running against GZ.

At least CR destroyed a legitimately consistent and top notch opponent in crushing Medaglio D'Oro, who was MUCH better than pretty much anything GZ ever beat. (edit. I forgot GZ beat a nice horse in St. Liam)

And Special Ring, while not an all time great on turf, was certainly a very tough horse.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Personally, I am suspicious of some of those figures that GZ's opponents earned while running huge and new career bests while only running against GZ.

First, this is not a true statement.

Second, every figure maker known to man had all of Ghostzapper's races insanely fast.

Everything was fairly cut and dry about the figures for his races. That is why every figure maker had all of his races fast.

Perhaps, in some great conspiracy, the track maintenance crew souped up the track right before all of Ghostzapper's races ... and the track maintenance crew slowed it down right after all of his races?