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[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Bababooyee

The broad question is "When does life begin?" When you say "It continues", you imply that there is a beginning as someting must actually start before it can really continue. Hence, my confusion (I asked for clarification in case you were a buhdist or something).

Let's get past that before we get to the "special cases".

Baba,
If this is "the chicken or the egg" discussion...leave me out.
I went into that one once long ago in a Philosophy 101 class.
No answer was found, though I still shake my head thinking about some of the arguements presented.
If you know the answer to your queston...enlighten me.

[skippy3481]

Brian not judging your faith just clarifying. I just dont agree with it. Gen 1-27 says god created man in his own image. I fail to see how one can draw we evolved from monkeys and you forget that science cannot prove we evolved from monkeys, just like i cannot prove that god created us. Being a chrisitan doesnt mean that you are unintelligent or unquestioning but you do have to have faith. Either god created the world and man or he didnt. Either he died and rose again or he didnt. It's not as gray as you make it seem. I agree there are gray areas in christendom. However, creation and his death aren't one of them. Because the bible basically revolved around those two points.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by skippy3481

Brian not judging your faith just clarifying. I just dont agree with it. Gen 1-27 says god created man in his own image. I fail to see how one can draw we evolved from monkeys and you forget that science cannot prove we evolved from monkeys, just like i cannot prove that god created us. Being a chrisitan doesnt mean that you are unintelligent or unquestioning but you do have to have faith. Either god created the world and man or he didnt. Either he died and rose again or he didnt. It's not as gray as you make it seem. I agree there are gray areas in christendom. However, creation and his death aren't one of them. Because the bible basically revolved around those two points.

true. but there is very sound science that shows evolution in general, that species adapt and become completely different from what they once were.

did God create man? Yes. do I believe that God just laid man down as step one? No. Do I believe in evolution? Absolutely. Do I believe evolution is God's work? Yes.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Bababooyee

A thread that has politics, abortion and evolution discussions...three topics I vowed to never argue online again. Well, at least I am just arguing one (and not gonna get into the others...I swear! ).

so so true. they are fruitless, but never cease to be interesting to see how everyone else approaches all three of those things.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Bababooyee

Well, since we're honestly trying to communicate, let me explain what I meant by "I could argue the same thing in reverse" wrt the above.

But, let me make sure I am understanding the above properly. Are you saying:

Assuming for the sake of argument that life begins at conception, a law forcing a woman to carry her rapist's baby to term makes some lives more important than others (ie a hierarchy to human life).

i understand that part. i understand that my logic in that section was flawed, because by aborting the baby in order to spare her the trauma, it's still 1 for 1. either way, one person is going to be screwed. i get that, and understood your ability to argue that one.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Bababooyee

Would advances in technology change the start of life? IOW, medical science is advancing at such a rapid pace that preemies are able to survive outside the womb earlier and earlier. Just curious or something to think about.

it very well might change my mind on it a bit. i know (or think i know) that no preemie at 8 weeks could survive. but we'll cross the bridge when technology forces us to cross it

[GenuineRisk]

But we all agree contraceptives are good for preventing pregnancy in the first place, yes?

I think that part, contraceptives, is where the middle ground will be found, because both sides have their stance on it, which, at this point in our knowledge of science and spirituality, depend on a gut feeling (on both sides, really). And no one thinks it's a good position for a woman to be in, having to decide to abort. So why isn't everyone in the public sphere focusing on reducing the number of unplanned pregnancies in the first place? What do you guys think?

Thanks for giving me a discussing that went heated and then calm as opinions, feelings, etc. did actually get clarified. Dude, if you guys were in Congress, stuff might actually get done...

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

But we all agree contraceptives are good for preventing pregnancy in the first place, yes?

I think that part, contraceptives, is where the middle ground will be found, because both sides have their stance on it, which, at this point in our knowledge of science and spirituality, depend on a gut feeling (on both sides, really). And no one thinks it's a good position for a woman to be in, having to decide to abort. So why isn't everyone in the public sphere focusing on reducing the number of unplanned pregnancies in the first place? What do you guys think?

Thanks for giving me a discussing that went heated and then calm as opinions, feelings, etc. did actually get clarified. Dude, if you guys were in Congress, stuff might actually get done...

Genuine Risk,
I'll just tell you that it all comes down to one thing...aspirin.
Yup! You heard me...aspirin.
It's one of the remedies that the "Vatican" hasn't condemned despite their infinite wisdom, insighting the Muslims, starting crusades, inquisitions and all of their "devine interpretation" and "spin" of Jesus's words.
None of the "saints" will object.
Aspirin (bayer or generic) is really the answer to this one.
It works for the head aches...and we've had more than plenty of those lately.
Here's how it's done:
1) Take aspirin out of pill box.
2) Smile alluringly by female at "love interest".
3) Place aspirin firmly between knees and squeeze.
4) Get "love interest" a beer if you can hop to the fridge. He'll calm down after the third or fourth one.
5) Then it might be safe to remove the aspirin. If not, make "eggs Benedict".

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

But we all agree contraceptives are good for preventing pregnancy in the first place, yes?

I think that part, contraceptives, is where the middle ground will be found, because both sides have their stance on it, which, at this point in our knowledge of science and spirituality, depend on a gut feeling (on both sides, really). And no one thinks it's a good position for a woman to be in, having to decide to abort. So why isn't everyone in the public sphere focusing on reducing the number of unplanned pregnancies in the first place? What do you guys think?

Thanks for giving me a discussing that went heated and then calm as opinions, feelings, etc. did actually get clarified. Dude, if you guys were in Congress, stuff might actually get done...

so true. the problem is that both sides see how to do that differently. nobody likes abortion. nobody. but the far right wants to paint any pro-choicer as a murderer, and the far left wants to paint the pro-lifers and loony Christians.

We stop this joke about abstinence-only sex education right off. No matter where in the country, conservative, liberal, rural, urban, it does not matter.

I would actually say that the one thing we can all agree on is that we want fewer abortions. How we get there is another matter. To me though, from looking at the history of abortion, outlawing it is not even close to the way to do that.

luckily the people on this board are by and large rational, intelligent people, so we're able to have this kind of discussion without resorting to calling names and getting so mad at each other that we refuse to talk.