Prominent horse owners vow to run 2-year-olds without race-day drugs

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

This simply isn't true. If it were easy to measure performance, which it is not, there would be easy answers.

It is very easy to measure objective performance parameters scientifically. We have literally thousands of scientific papers, in human and animal medicine, that do this: measure performance. It is the basis of the creation and development of sports medicine, in humans and animals, years ago.

There are two ways that are commonly and frequently used in equine research regarding furosemide and EIPH:

The first is to take horses, train them to run on a high-speed treadmill indoors at racing speeds (where you control environment, temperature, humidity, air quality, absolute feet-per-second of speed, etc). Then subject them to testing conditions and measure the results before, during, after.

The second is to use detailed statistical analysis to examine real-life racing horses retrospectively.

What else do you think "simply isn't true"?

I personally don't think those on the side of non-drug use should have to prove a drug doesn't enhance performance. It should be the other way around. I'm not sure it can be done right now with the tools we have.

It already has been done.

This - the benefit of lasix to race horses, and it's ability to affect performance - is not a subject, within the veterinary and scientific community, where opinion is widely variable, or "50-50" at all. As far as the scientific and veterinary community goes, it is 99.99% to 0.01.

Scientists and veterinarians do not form an opinion, then try to justify it. We have formed our opinions based upon what the objective, repeatable evidence tells us is true and real.

That is why an overwheming, vast majority number of veterinarians and scientists say the evidence shows us that lasix is not performance enhancing in non-EIPH horses, it shows it is a valuable therapeutic medication.

That is why the overwhelming, vast majority of veterinarians and scientists advise the use of lasix in race horses with EIPH.

I have only seen two veterinarians publicly say they think lasix should be banned, that I can recall by name.

That's two out of tens of thousands that treat equines or involved in equine research - let alone the rest of the medical community.

Even if there were 100 vets that felt that way, based upon their reading of the scientific literature (which is why there are not that number), that would still an overwhelming, less than 0.0001% of equine researchers and veterinarians to feel the facts should be interpreted differently than the overwhelming majority say those facts demonstrate.

This is not a subject where there is any significant variance whatsoever in what the medical/scientific community agrees upon.

That is why it is completely shocking to we in the medical community to see lay people ask the medical community what we think, the vets give the answers (which in this case virtually everyone agrees upon!), then the lay people choose to ignore or disregard the professional, educated advice, and say, "Well, gee, I dunno ... " !

Let me ask a simple, yes or no, question. If Frankel raced in the USA or Canada, would he be given Lasix? If so, does he really need it? If not, why not?

I have no idea what Frankel's health record is.

Let's go back to the child with asthma. Let's say the asthma is usually under good control, but exacerbates with exercise. Would a parent let him/her play soccer only using their prevention inhaler after an attack begins? Of course not! We would all use the prevention inhaler to prevent or decrease the severity of an exercise-induced asthma attack.

That is precisely what lasix does to attentuate the severity and frequency of Exercise-Induced Pulmonary Hemorrhage in horses diagnosed with same.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Riot

It is very easy to measure objective performance parameters scientifically. We have literally thousands of scientific papers, in human and animal medicine, that do this: measure performance. It is the basis of the creation and development of sports medicine, in humans and animals, years ago.

I have to admit, this is probably the funniest thing you have posted.

When horses start racing competitively on a treadmill, and they are known to maintain form from day to day, I'll buy into the first test.

Seriously, the second is a joke, right? I've seen the studies. They have no idea how to measure performance.

Your asthma thing is ridiculous. These horses are treated for EIPH before anyone has a clue if they suffer from it or not. Nice dodge on the Frankel question though. The answer is, of course, he would race on Lasix. Would he need it? The answer is, of course, obviously not.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I have to admit, this is probably the funniest thing you have posted.

When horses start racing competitively on a treadmill, and they are known to maintain form from day to day, I'll buy into the first test.

Seriously, the second is a joke, right? I've seen the studies. They have no idea how to measure performance.

That's right. Hundreds of scientists, in human and animal medicine, are not as smart as you about ... doing science.

And of course, measuring speed and distance achievable in a horse tells us nothing about performance. How silly of we scientists! (smacks palm against forehead!)

Pardon me while I laugh hysterically - and sadly - at a man in 2012 believing the earth is flat and 6000 years old.
Good luck with your fantasy cult. Whatever you do, keep ensuring that no reality intrudes upon your religion ... opinion, whatever it is.

And please, start writing the editors of medical journals regarding the deficiencies of various study methodologies ... your opinion, surely, will be as well-received as you imagine it's worth.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Riot

And please, start writing the editors of medical journals regarding the deficiencies of various study methodologies ... your opinion, surely, will be as well-received as you imagine it's worth.

It would probably be worth about the same as your opinion here.

[parsixfarms]

How about the geared-down winning performance from Lunar Victory in today's Evan Shipman Stakes at Saratoga? A very talented horse who may be the top New York-bred horse in training on dirt, he has now won four consecutive races for Bill Mott and the anti-Lasix pledge-taking Juddmonte Farms. In the third victory of his current streak, he bled through Lasix so bad that it was noted in the race chart. Would racing be better off without the horses like Lunar Victory?

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

How about the geared-down winning performance from Lunar Victory in today's Evan Shipman Stakes at Saratoga? A very talented horse who may be the top New York-bred horse in training on dirt, he has now won four consecutive races for Bill Mott and the anti-Lasix pledge-taking Juddmonte Farms. In the third victory of his current streak, he bled through Lasix so bad that it was noted in the race chart. Would racing be better off without the horses like Lunar Victory?

The point is racing would be better off without lasix in general. BTW geared down? Please like in 2 jumps a horse is so much slower if the rider relaxes , this stuff is so overrated. Of course I like watching good horses and of course I want to see horses like Lunar Victory run. My issue is how come at Royal Ascot and Longchamps the horses are fine and at Saratoga and Delmar they aren't?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by freddymo

My issue is how come at Royal Ascot and Longchamps the horses are fine and at Saratoga and Delmar they aren't?

The horses at Royal Ascot and Longchamps are not "fine". The same number of horses as in the US bleed and suffer EIPH. The horses at Royal Ascot and Longchamps just suffer EIPH more severely when it happens during a race, as they train on lasix, but don't race on it. Plenty of horses come back to the paddock snorting blood out their nostrils. Read the stewards reports before you guess.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by freddymo

The point is racing would be better off without lasix in general. BTW geared down? Please like in 2 jumps a horse is so much slower if the rider relaxes , this stuff is so overrated. Of course I like watching good horses and of course I want to see horses like Lunar Victory run. My issue is how come at Royal Ascot and Longchamps the horses are fine and at Saratoga and Delmar they aren't?

I really think a lot has to do with the difference in the surfaces over which the horses are raced/trained. The fact is that our dirt races, contested with a premium on early speed, in many respects, are a battle of attrition. I don't think it can be seriously debated that dirt races are more strenuous on the horse than turf races are. Few turf races are contested in the same way; in fact, just the opposite, the premium is placed on late speed.

This is more anecdotal than anything else but twice we have owned turf horses that would bleed if worked strenuously (over 4F) on dirt. When we got up here in Saratoga and were able to work them over the Oklahoma turf course, we could work them up to 6F without incident in the morning. It did illustrate that, when a horse is breezed/raced over what was for him a more demanding/uncomfortable surface, he was more apt to bleed (even with Lasix).