A great day for the sport.

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by Kasept

You totally missed the point Doug which I guess I understand since you weren't there. Those that were anxious for the day to be spoiled had it shoved up their ass by an enthusiastic crowd that couldn't have been happier to be there. They ate, drank, bet their money and made the atmosphere as special as possible in lieu of the Triple Crown storyline.

Good one Steve - exactly - a lot of us who watched it on TV were still excited. Many I've talked to this weekend said what a good matchup it was in spite of IHA's absence.

[phystech]

Interesting thread.

I completely understand Steve's comments about Belmont Day. Being a Maryland owner and resident, I felt exactly the same way on Preakness Day. The only way I could have felt more proud that day was if I had a horse running in one of the races - any of the races - that day. I didn't care what the final times of any of the races were, or what the class of the race was, it simply was a wonderful day to be a MD'er, an owner, and to be at Pimlico.

It sucks to see too many bashing Belmont Day just like they did Preakness Day.

The best thing racing has going for it are the bettors. The worst thing racing has going for it is the bettors. How do we reconcile that?

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by phystech

Interesting thread.

I completely understand Steve's comments about Belmont Day. Being a Maryland owner and resident, I felt exactly the same way on Preakness Day. The only way I could have felt more proud that day was if I had a horse running in one of the races - any of the races - that day. I didn't care what the final times of any of the races were, or what the class of the race was, it simply was a wonderful day to be a MD'er, an owner, and to be at Pimlico.

It sucks to see too many bashing Belmont Day just like they did Preakness Day.

The best thing racing has going for it are the bettors. The worst thing racing has going for it is the bettors. How do we reconcile that?

I saw no one here bash the Belmont day -- and certainly I don't know of one person or one entity that has bashed this years Preakness day.

Big crowds and festive atmospheres are fun. I remember going into the infield on Preakness day the year Point Given won and I loved it. Good looking college aged girls were being hoisted up and showing their tits every few minutes in different ares. I saw fights. I've been to toga parties in highschool that were way more civilized. It was wild.

I've been to the Derby five times. Great atmosphere. I've been to the Travers a couple times.

In the 1930's -- they'd get crowds of over 200,000 people on Ascot Gold Cup day and the environment was famous the world over.

You need 7-day a week fans who bet. Not people who want to drink and socialize and show up for big events three or four days a year and maybe bet $20 on a slowpoke like Ravelo's Boy who hasn't raced in 100 days.

They like to talk about "reaching" the new fans who show up for these races -- well that's good and I know they can do a better job of it. However, the people who they need to get are the people who aren't showing up at all on those days and have no plans to show up at a racetrack anytime soon. These are people that barely know horse racing exists.

In theory, It's very simple and obvious how you get them in force. You detach the "sucker game" label that haunts this sport. Doing this will also greatly empower the current bettors.

I tried to restrain myself from not saying anything in this thread -- but nothing is going to get better if people with vocal platforms want to make it a stride-for-stride myopian Us VS PETA and Us VS The NY Times argument.

Steve said I missed his point -- and I think he was also getting at those who thought the Belmont day would lose some of its sparkle without I'll Have Another running. I guess that's what the magical day stuff was about.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

They like to talk about "reaching" the new fans who show up for these races -- well that's good and I know they can do a better job of it. However, the people who they need to get are the people who aren't showing up at all on those days and have no plans to show up at a racetrack anytime soon. These are people that barely know horse racing exists.

In theory, It's very simple and obvious how you get them in force. You detach the "sucker game" label that haunts this sport. Doing this will also greatly empower the current bettors. .

There's only one time a year when a Belmont is going to have numbers like that, so it has to make some sort of push to get some repeat buisness.

My question is, how do you detatch the Sucker Game label?

[richard]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

There's only one time a year when a Belmont is going to have numbers like that, so it has to make some sort of push to get some repeat buisness.

My question is, how do you detatch the Sucker Game label?

Doesn't every gambling endeavor have the sucker label? I like Frank's idea of a horse racing lottery with huge payouts. But the politics won't allow it because lotteries are run by the states and they don't want that type of competition. The Rainbow 5 and the Super High 5 are steps in the right direction that lottery players may be able to get close to if it's promoted.

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by richard

Doesn't every gambling endeavor have the sucker label? I like Frank's idea of a horse racing lottery with huge payouts. But the politics won't allow it because lotteries are run by the states and they don't want that type of competition. The Rainbow 5 and the Super High 5 are steps in the right direction that lottery players may be able to get close to if it's promoted.

I don't think the sucker label is thrown around with Poker much...and that's the closest model to match parimutuel wagering. Except that the rake in poker is miniscule compared to the confiscatory takeout.

And to an earlier point made by someone else about having to pay for past performance data, where they don't do that in South Africa or Australia and the takeout is too high, the problem is that the takeout is being "taken out" by the government - who contribute nothing to the operation of the game. And work costs money - always - including the work of compiling, preparing, data mining and publishing information for bettors to use.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

My question is, how do you detatch the Sucker Game label?

In theory it is very easy to do.

It starts with betting exchanges, in-race betting, and a return to low takeout. Low exotic takeout pools.

Pittsburgh Phil was a cork cutter making $5 a week with no formal education -- his initial goal in life was to be a harness trainer.

The people who play fantasy sports, poker, day-trade stock, the people I see by the hundreds when I go to the casino here at 4AM on a Monday and no booze is served ... people like that will come out of the woodwork. Those are the kind that can be useful 7day a week fans and bettors who can carry the water.


Climate a hundred years ago...

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

In theory it is very easy to do.

It starts with betting exchanges, in-race betting, and a return to low takeout. Low exotic takeout pools.

Pittsburgh Phil was a cork cutter making $5 a week with no formal education -- his initial goal in life was to be a harness trainer.

The people who play fantasy sports, poker, day-trade stock, the people I see by the hundreds when I go to the casino here at 4AM on a Monday and no booze is served ... people like that will come out of the woodwork. Those are the kind that can be useful 7day a week fans and bettors who can carry the water.

I think you could be on to something, but what about educating these people? I have always thought that one of the biggest problems that the sport faces, is the so-called "homework" that needs to be done. Let's face it, it can be a very time consuming process. To make matters worse, the majority of these people are going to need some sort of introduction even before they get to the "homework" stage.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

I think you could be on to something, but what about educating these people? I have always thought that one of the biggest problems that the sport faces, is the so-called "homework" that needs to be done. Let's face it, it can be a very time consuming process. To make matters worse, the majority of these people are going to need some sort of introduction even before they get to the "homework" stage.

I had two casual bettors come up to me on Belmont Stakes day and ask me about Mizzen Mast and if he is a good turf sire.

They were wondering about a horse in the race after the Belmont named Tazered who had been repeatedly entered on the turf but never got to run on it yet.

I told them that Mizzen Mast actually moved up on dirt for Frankel but that he is a fair turf sire. I told them both the name they should know is the damsire Spinning World. He won a Breeders Cup Mile and was 2nd to DaHoss in another.

I told them the dam of the horse was 2-for-2 in France and Team Valor paid $400,000 for her to bring her here -- but she never held up to race here.

I told them where they could find such information on the Internet for free -- and I told them that if they're too lazy to look it up -- just pay attention to that tracks tv show because BTW will give a lot of information like that out.

These guys enjoy themselves here and play on the weekends...but they are hopeless against a 15-to-20% takeout. If they started to hold their own and taste winning more often ... they would try harder and bet more.

I see a poster here named Ogygian at PID a lot. On Saturday, he was telling me stories about how Jean Cruget is a terrible bettor and bets numbers off the board. Maybe even Jean Cruget would try and do some homework if he wasn't so up against it.

The vids on Youtube are awesome. I'm going to send this video in my aol e-mail account to all of my internet friends. I might even fire up ICQ and spam it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGS53tEmom8

[pointman]

I was there Saturday and can totally understand where Steve is coming from. Despite everyone expecting to witness history just 24 hours prior, the mood was very positive. The place was packed and people were really enjoying themselves. It felt like the racing days when I was a kid. Don't get me started on all the gorgeous women dressed to the nines.

Was it the best product of racing? Absolutely not. But I did not get the sense that anyone really cared that they had witnessed a slow Belmont with an average field that IHA would have likely destroyed. Overall, NYRA did a very good job in putting on the product they had to work with. Could they have done better? I agree with Matt that they could have done more promotion and tried to promote other events. They could have done more to teach people to wager or even worked something out to promote Night School.

Having gone straight to AC afterwards gave me an interesting perspective with regard to drawing in the neophytes who had attended that day. The problem with drawing in new fans is that we live in a society today where people want instant gratification and don't want to put much effort into it. Horse racing is a game that takes time to learn and requires time and effort to succeed. In AC I watched people gambling staggering amounts on games where they put almost no effort and either won or lost very quickly. But many people love puzzles and there are no greater puzzles on a daily basis than those in the DRF.

Maybe horse racing should take a cue and try to get into the casino crowd. It would take some thought as to how to actually structure some new wagers and the pools, but the industry could try to make some wagers similar to those that are offered by casinos and consider lowering the takeouts to those similar to casinos. Why not try things such as triples or pick three's where you can get fixed odds on all odd or all even numbered horses or a straight to fill the slots or something like that? Over/under of the total of the numbers of the first 3 horses in the trifecta or pick three? Have a wager where certain odds are paid on the same number winning 3 races in a row like a slot machine?

I know there are different field sizes and scratches, but I am sure things can be innovative and the industry can try these things on big days to draw in people to an easy level which will ultimately get a percentage of them to want to learn more and learn how to play the wagers we have now.

Having said that, I had a terrific day with my father, brother, brother in law and some friends that everyone, not all horse players, thoroughly enjoyed. I also got to hang out a bit with some great handicapping DT posters and enjoyed every second of the day and found it much more enjoyable than AC. In fact, Sunday morning I could not wait to pass on playing on the tables and start hightailing myself back to NYC to play Hollywood.