Big Browns crop

[Revidere]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

He beat General Assembly and Coastal, both super talented horses, but also both 3YOs, in the Marlboro Cup. Just because it was open to older horses doesn't mean his real competition were older horses.

To your point Andy, the older horses in the Marlboro were Cox's Ridge, Star De Naskra and Text. General Assembly just came off his record setting performance in the Travers and Coastal was riding a four race winning streak with two Grade 1's. In fact, General Assembly beat Star Se Naskra in the Vosburgh in both of their next starts.

[Perrault Robbed]

What Slew O' Gold did in the fall of his 3 year old season was remarkable.
How do his figures compare to his 4 years old campaign?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Revidere

To your point Andy, the older horses in the Marlboro were Cox's Ridge, Star De Naskra and Text. General Assembly just came off his record setting performance in the Travers and Coastal was riding a four race winning streak with two Grade 1's. In fact, General Assembly beat Star Se Naskra in the Vosburgh in both of their next starts.

that was my derby pick-loved that horse. and it's the main reason i didn't give bid his due at the time.

[FATPIANO]

Originally Posted by Danzig

that was my derby pick-loved that horse. and it's the main reason i didn't give bid his due at the time.

A lot of fans felt the same way as you, and did not give The Bid his due, while he was racing, and I still do not understand, I thought he was great back then, and lookin back now, He was simply amazing in what he did.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by FATPIANO

A lot of fans felt the same way as you, and did not give The Bid his due, while he was racing, and I still do not understand, I thought he was great back then, and lookin back now, He was simply amazing in what he did.

he was awesome. and i was a kid then, so i chalk it up to youthful emotion! lol hell, people still debate sunday silence vs easy goer, affirmed vs alydar....it's not logic-based.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Revidere

To your point Andy, the older horses in the Marlboro were Cox's Ridge, Star De Naskra and Text. General Assembly just came off his record setting performance in the Travers and Coastal was riding a four race winning streak with two Grade 1's. In fact, General Assembly beat Star Se Naskra in the Vosburgh in both of their next starts.

Here are some of the horses he beat that day.

* General Assembly (15-length Travers winner in a track record setting time at Saratoga that still stands to this day. The good Private Account was 3rd by 26 lengths in that Travers. General Assembly came back and won the Vosburgh against older horses next out.




* Coastal (was another monster speed figure horse -- he had just won the Haskell under 127lbs -- to this day the highest weight assignment carried to victory in the Haskell)




* Cox's Ridge (older horse, won 16 of 28 lifetime)




* Star De Naskra (had crossed the wire first in 7-races in a row, including a victory over Alydar in the Carter)

[blackthroatedwind]

I was there. Cox's Ridge and Star de Naskra was superior horses. They also didn't hit the board, that's how good those three 3YOs were.

[cmorioles]

Is is both fun and sad to look back at times when good horses actually raced each other more than once a year.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Is is both fun and sad to look back at times when good horses actually raced each other more than once a year.

[Calzone Lord]

Some recent horses who set or approached monster speed figures at age 4:

Ghostzapper, Formal Gold, Candy Ride, Mineshaft, Congaree, Mazel Trick, Commentator, Lava Man, Lawyer Ron, Midnight Lute, Groovy ran his 132 and 133 Beyers at age 4.

The fastest figure horses in all of history -- Gun Bow, Discovery, Spectacular Bid, Coaltown etc. did by far their best damage at age 4.

Harbinger ran the fastest Turf race I've ever encountered at age 4:




Mossflower is a forgotten horse who also freaked at age 4 and went to the sidelines:



The good filly Mariah's Storm -- dam of Giant's Causeway -- ran a 120 Beyer at age 4. Inside Information freaked at age 4 and won the Breeders Cup Distaff by a pole over a great group.

Lady's Secret obviously freaked in a big way at age 4.

Phar Lap was invincible at age 4 -- winning four different Group 1 races in a span of 7 days including the Melbourne Cup under 138lbs giving big weight all-around.

[blackthroatedwind]

I have talked about Mossflower quite a bit recently. She's hardly forgotten.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I have talked about Mossflower quite a bit recently. She's hardly forgotten.

Yeah -- I put her in and didn't mention Dr. Fager and Tom Fool -- who were both supreme monsters at age 4 as well.

[tiggerv]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Yeah -- I put her in and didn't mention Dr. Fager and Tom Fool -- who were both supreme monsters at age 4 as well.

I was just about to suggest Dr Fager. His 4yo year was as good as anyone.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Some recent horses who set or approached monster speed figures at age 4:

Ghostzapper, Formal Gold, Candy Ride, Mineshaft, Congaree, Mazel Trick, Commentator, Lava Man, Lawyer Ron, Midnight Lute, Groovy ran his 132 and 133 Beyers at age 4.

The fastest figure horses in all of history -- Gun Bow, Discovery, Spectacular Bid, Coaltown etc. did by far their best damage at age 4.

Harbinger ran the fastest Turf race I've ever encountered at age 4:




Mossflower is a forgotten horse who also freaked at age 4 and went to the sidelines:



The good filly Mariah's Storm -- dam of Giant's Causeway -- ran a 120 Beyer at age 4. Inside Information freaked at age 4 and won the Breeders Cup Distaff by a pole over a great group.

Lady's Secret obviously freaked in a big way at age 4.

Phar Lap was invincible at age 4 -- winning four different Group 1 races in a span of 7 days including the Melbourne Cup under 138lbs giving big weight all-around.

Akinemod 119.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Some recent horses who set or approached monster speed figures at age 4:

Ghostzapper, Formal Gold, Candy Ride, Mineshaft, Congaree, Mazel Trick, Commentator, Lava Man, Lawyer Ron, Midnight Lute, Groovy ran his 132 and 133 Beyers at age 4.

Congaree was pretty slow as a 4yo until his final start that he parlayed into a monster 5yo season.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Congaree was pretty slow as a 4yo until his final start that he parlayed into a monster 5yo season.

Yep.

The Cigar Mile at age 4 was the race where he broke Spectacular Bid's 22+ year record for fastest Ragozin figure and he also crushed the all-time Thoro-Graph record in that race.

The Thoro-Graph record would be broke and re-broke a few more times -- including once in Mineshaft's lone loss at age 4 -- until Ghostzapper and Midnight Lute re-set them.

By the year 2000 -- the scale was starting to get out of hand -- and horses were becoming much faster at all class levels.

[Revidere]

This is one great thread.

The title does it no justice. I could close my eyes and see these races in my mind.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Revidere

This is one great thread.

The title does it no justice. I could close my eyes and see these races in my mind.

More like see them through your lens eye.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Perrault Robbed

What Slew O' Gold did in the fall of his 3 year old season was remarkable.
How do his figures compare to his 4 years old campaign?

Slew O' Gold was a Seattle Slew half brother to Coastal.

I don't have figures for Slew O' Gold. I looked and couldn't find anything -- and the DRF Archive site is down right now.

Coastal was one of the most underrated 3yo's you will ever see. When he won the Peter Pan Stakes by 13 lengths in his final Belmont Stakes prep -- he ran a 122 figure -- and that figure is based off of the Beyer pars of today...and not the Pars of eight years ago where it would have been a 126 or 127.

Interestingly, in the history of the Haskell, Coastal is the only horse to ever win carrying 127lbs or more. A few have failed to win under that impost (Spend a Buck, Little Current) -- Holy Bull carried 126lbs to victory.

Here is a link where I detailed the process for making old figs and used Coastal's Peter Pan as an example. http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/sho...hlight=Coastal

[Linny]

Being a huge Bid fan, I rather resented Coastal at the time. In retrospect, I have far greater respect for him. Coastal was a serious horse whose historical place has generally been "the spoiler."

Bid would be all but unbeatable today as his one "limitation" was 12f. Of course, it took some serious horses to beat him at 12f. Today, after facing a crew of 9f bred horses in the Belmont, he'd never again need to face such a route. Bid was the only horse that could consistently run races on par with those of Dr Fager. He never just "didn't fire."

The range of deevelopment pointed out in this thread demonstrates why the lack of an "older" campaign was once considered questionable. Today, it behooves many owners to retire a nice 3yo before he might face a dressing down by potential later arrivals.

What might a 4yo campaign from Point Given have looked like? Would he have held his own or would Pleasantly Perfect or Lido Palace or others had his measure? Looking at his 3yo campaign it's hard to think he'd have been less than a monster but alot can happen.